Can we all just go back to work now? (M855 ban news)

[JaPes]

The substantial price gauging was mainly on some of the bulk ammo websites.

Any item will sell for as high of a price as someone is willing to pay. It's not price gouging. It's business. Plain and simple. I'm going to catch flack for this, but ammunition isn't food, medicine, water, fuel for heat or transport. When stored properly, ammunition isn't subject to spoilage.

Price gouging only applies to emergency situations where retailers/suppliers are jacking up prices based on human misery. That's price gouging. When you have hungry people in a tornado zone and the only grocery store that has food jacks up prices beyond resonable, that's gouging.

Ammo does defend life, but is not essential to life. Slowly build yourself a supply during times of plenty to insulate yourself from fluctuations in price and supply.

Crony Capitalism at it's best. I hope he loses allot of money or ends up with a garage full of ammo and doesn't even have a rifle to shoot it.

Crony Capitalism is where business success is dependent on close relationships between business people/representatives/leaders and government officials. Please explain to me how an individual consumer, going to several retail outlets to buy ammo and resell it for profit is Crony Capitalism?

As a U.S. Citizen who lives by the rules of the Republic (the U.S. is not a Democracy) and in a nation who's capitalist economy is a world leader, what model do you think we should follow?

• Let's redistribute ammo so that everyone has a shot at buying it? Socialism.
• Let's regulate the price of ammunition! The Ammo manufacturers are crazy. That right there is a mix of Socialism and Communism.

I'm not defending motivated individuals who try to make a buck off an ammo panic. It's something I wouldn't personally do. Who am I to judge? Maybe that extra $$$ made goes to support that person's family? I really don't care. What I do is choose not to endorse such things by not buying from such individuals.

Hell, some people accuse me of being an ammo "hoarder". I just laugh. I don't go out clearing shelves. I bought when ammo was plenty, and readily available to anyone at a good price. During the .223/5.56, panic, I left ammo on the shelves for others to buy. While I have sympathy for someone who doesn't have ammunition to shoot so they can enjoy participating in the shooting sports, it's that individual's responsibility to take care of their own damn selves.

If there's a real "Red Dawn" or breakdown of law and order, you bet I'm going to distribute a portion of my ammo stash to my neighbors, who are fellow firearms enthusiasts, for mutual defense. I won't have to distribute much as they are of similar mindset as I.

Unfortunately i have 5.56 guns with no ammo. Ive only been looking online. Ill have to check he big box stores

Be patient. Trust me. A panic has an immediate steep initial demand/price curve, than a gradual demand/price reduction slope as the panic dies. Keep in mind that the West Coast Port strike disrupted international shipping. Lots of the ammo we like to shoot come from overseas. Lots of the components for fully assembled factory cartridges come from overseas. Not only have we had a panic increase in demand, there has been a dent to the supply chain.

Buy just enough to get you through a range session or enough to keep your skill sharp. Give it a couple months for everything to stabilize. When bulk ammo is back online, no one is buying it, free shipping promos start up again, it's time to buy.

Keep calm. Keep smart. Be ready for the next time. Slowly build up your ammo reserves. Don't waste $$$ buying years worth of ammo. Build up enough of a reserve to support a maximum of 1 year of your shooting habits. The key is to slowly do it. Next thing you know during the next election cycle panic or proposed regulatory panic, you too will get accused of being a "Crony Capitalist", "Hoarder", "Fat-Cat", and other silly things just because you took personal responsibility for being prepared.

I'm exiting this thread. You either get it or don't. Whiners are always going to whine. As the kids say, Haters are always going to Hate.

 

[MichiganScott]

Availability of .223 ammunition will probably be spotty until the summer of 2016, so prices will remain high. Unfortunately, the past few election cycles have shown that demand will increase, along with prices, as we close in on the election.

I use M855 and M193 for plinking and load my own match ammunition. I have enough to last through the next election, but will continue to stock up when I find anything on sale.

Buy it cheap and stack it deep. Prices aren't going down any time soon.

 

[shocker]

A question raised by the availability of 300 Blackout pistols:
Are steel core M80 bullets no longer available for sale?
Don't see them listed anymore at the webstores I look at.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Unfortunately i have 5.56 guns with no ammo. Ive only been looking online. Ill have to check he big box stores

Steel case $225/1000
Brass $339/1000

223 / 5.56mm | SGAmmo.com

 

[ClayCow]

I used to be able to get steel case for 21 cents! I want my m855 for 30 cents!

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Any item will sell for as high of a price as someone is willing to pay. It's not price gouging. It's business. Plain and simple. I'm going to catch flack for this, but ammunition isn't food, medicine, water, fuel for heat or transport. When stored properly, ammunition isn't subject to spoilage.

Price gouging only applies to emergency situations where retailers/suppliers are jacking up prices based on human misery. That's price gouging. When you have hungry people in a tornado zone and the only grocery store that has food jacks up prices beyond resonable, that's gouging.

Ammo does defend life, but is not essential to life. Slowly build yourself a supply during times of plenty to insulate yourself from fluctuations in price and supply.



Crony Capitalism is where business success is dependent on close relationships between business people/representatives/leaders and government officials. Please explain to me how an individual consumer, going to several retail outlets to buy ammo and resell it for profit is Crony Capitalism?

As a U.S. Citizen who lives by the rules of the Republic (the U.S. is not a Democracy) and in a nation who's capitalist economy is a world leader, what model do you think we should follow?

• Let's redistribute ammo so that everyone has a shot at buying it? Socialism.
• Let's regulate the price of ammunition! The Ammo manufacturers are crazy. That right there is a mix of Socialism and Communism.

I'm not defending motivated individuals who try to make a buck off an ammo panic. It's something I wouldn't personally do. Who am I to judge? Maybe that extra $$$ made goes to support that person's family? I really don't care. What I do is choose not to endorse such things by not buying from such individuals.

Hell, some people accuse me of being an ammo "hoarder". I just laugh. I don't go out clearing shelves. I bought when ammo was plenty, and readily available to anyone at a good price. During the .223/5.56, panic, I left ammo on the shelves for others to buy. While I have sympathy for someone who doesn't have ammunition to shoot so they can enjoy participating in the shooting sports, it's that individual's responsibility to take care of their own damn selves.

If there's a real "Red Dawn" or breakdown of law and order, you bet I'm going to distribute a portion of my ammo stash to my neighbors, who are fellow firearms enthusiasts, for mutual defense. I won't have to distribute much as they are of similar mindset as I.



Be patient. Trust me. A panic has an immediate steep initial demand/price curve, than a gradual demand/price reduction slope as the panic dies. Keep in mind that the West Coast Port strike disrupted international shipping. Lots of the ammo we like to shoot come from overseas. Lots of the components for fully assembled factory cartridges come from overseas. Not only have we had a panic increase in demand, there has been a dent to the supply chain.

Buy just enough to get you through a range session or enough to keep your skill sharp. Give it a couple months for everything to stabilize. When bulk ammo is back online, no one is buying it, free shipping promos start up again, it's time to buy.

Keep calm. Keep smart. Be ready for the next time. Slowly build up your ammo reserves. Don't waste $$$ buying years worth of ammo. Build up enough of a reserve to support a maximum of 1 year of your shooting habits. The key is to slowly do it. Next thing you know during the next election cycle panic or proposed regulatory panic, you too will get accused of being a "Crony Capitalist", "Hoarder", "Fat-Cat", and other silly things just because you took personal responsibility for being prepared.

I'm exiting this thread. You either get it or don't. Whiners are always going to whine. As the kids say, Haters are always going to Hate.

Ok don't call it crony capitalism but its still a bad thing. Just because something is legal doesn't mean it's morally right. And I was only referring to those that grab it up to immediately resale. Not those that are just building up a good supply. I am doing that myself. I just received a decent shipment Friday that, in addition to what I already have, gives me enough ammo for my range time for a year. And I bought it at a good price (I love ammoseek). It's silly to justify or defend these scalpers (which is probably the better term to use) who are adding fuel to a fire that shouldn't have ever been started and their actions are exactly what the ATF were hoping for. Hook line and sinker.

 

[ClayCow]

The basis of capitalism is supply and demand. You fill a need that people have. I dont support businesses like cheaper than dirt who gouge, but i mean youre saying any kind of inflation is bad. Is it bad to buy gold and sell when it rises? Is it bad to buy oil low and sell high?

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

The basis of capitalism is supply and demand. You fill a need that people have. I dont support businesses like cheaper than dirt who gouge, but i mean youre saying any kind of inflation is bad. Is it bad to buy gold and sell when it rises? Is it bad to buy oil low and sell high?

It is bad when you take a product completely off the shelves that's price was already determined by the free market and then artificially inflate that price. It's perfectly legal but 100% morally unacceptable.

But then again.....if over half of gun owners weren't prone to panic so quickly (which is what the ATF was counting on) the scalpers wouldn't be successful. And ignorance plays a part too. I was just in Walmart buying a 50 round box of Perfecta like I try and do every week and some guy walks up and starts panicking and tells his wife "see, all of the NATO is gone it's like this everywhere! It's going to be impossible for me to find any!" meanwhile Perfecta .223, as well as some other brands of .233, we're almost fully stocked. So I'm standing there thinking... So, okay everybody raided the 5.56 at Walmart but left. 223 completely alone? LOL?

 

[ClayCow]

How is it artifically inflated? The market determined the price of the item to be aa high as it is. I mean pre banned guns or machine guns or rare guns, those are all artificial? Pretty sure the seller only gets what the consumer is willing to pay.

I dontubderstand your theory of ATF driving up prices. How does this benefit them? People buy more ammo,manufacturers sell more ammo what does this have to do with the ATF? You act like there is some little evil dude behind a desk scheming these things up. Its not the ATFs fault people run out in panic.

 

[hoc9sw]

My local WM stores got cleaned out of all 5.56 and .223 almost immediately. It is now a mirror of .22 - comes in, gets sold immediately. The only .223 on the shelf that I've seen is the Monarch steel case at Academy.

 

[hoc9sw]

Its not the ATFs fault people run out in panic.

You are correct. It is not the ATF's fault that people buy in panic. It is, however, a clever move by them to use well-known human nature to dry up the market, which I suspect was the original objective. If they had pushed through the exemption removal, they would have effectively accomplished removal of the ammo from the market long before the change went into effect.

They "gave up" on this one, but I am sure it is a strategic retreat, possibly intended exactly to generate the comments. Eventually there will be a summary of them, and there will be a percentage where the writers went a bit overboard. So now there will be "documentation" of "all the crazies out there" at some point in the future.

It is not over. I really think it has not even really started yet.

 

[Rastoff]

It is, however, a clever move by them to use well-known human nature to dry up the market, which I suspect was the original objective.

Do you really believe this? If it was their objective, then they don't understand how a semi-free market works in a capitalistic society.

By generating panic buying, manufacturers will just increase production to meet the demand. So, yeah, there is a shortage in the short term followed by a glut once they catch up.

Before the Sandy Hook incident, I could buy .223 for $350/1,000. After, I could still find .223, but for $500/400. Then time went by. Not long ago I bought a 1,000 round case for $298. Yep, the demand was so high, they produced so much it actually drove the price lower than it was previously.

It is not over. I really think it has not even really started yet.

You are correct about this. It's not even about gun control. As long as there are two people on the planet, one will want to exert some level of control over the other.

 

[ClayCow]

Causing a market panic to dry up the market theb emplacing the ban really doesnt do anything vs just enacting the ban without the panic. Not sure there is logic in your statement. The only difference in not causing a panic and causing a ban would be less bullets for everyone which would be smarter than having people stockpile it right before the ban because then people will either take up the remainder or itll be thrown away. Either way if they want to enact the ban, it has no bearing on producing a panic.

 

[hoc9sw]

Do you really believe this? If it was their objective, then they don't understand how a semi-free market works in a capitalistic society.

Actually I should have said "part of".

But yes, I do believe that they intended to kill the supply.
They did get a lot more responses than they expected, but in a way that will hurt us, because many will have had a bit of a radical tone that will make them appear to be the work of "crazies". That did not work immediately to their advantage, as now they have to make some sort of response, and try again, hiding it better this time, or trying to discredit the responses. But that could have been an effective trial balloon as well. They would have hoped the news to clear the shelves, then the exemption removal to kick in before manufacturers had a chance to respond.

They did help WM clear the shelves of ammo that had been collecting dust for many months. Maybe someone at ATF owns WM stock

 

[John R]

I knew all along nothing would happen. I don't get into believing all of the hype when stuff like this happens, just like the "AWB".

This is exactly what the anti's hope for, we should never let our guard down.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

How is it artifically inflated? The market determined the price of the item to be aa high as it is. I mean pre banned guns or machine guns or rare guns, those are all artificial? Pretty sure the seller only gets what the consumer is willing to pay.

I dontubderstand your theory of ATF driving up prices. How does this benefit them? People buy more ammo,manufacturers sell more ammo what does this have to do with the ATF? You act like there is some little evil dude behind a desk scheming these things up. Its not the ATFs fault people run out in panic.

It's easy to understand if you would simply read, or comprehend, what has been said and watch what scalpers are doing. The market prices are set by the producer and passed down to the seller. That price is determined by the demand of the consumer. When douchebags come in and buys all of a particular ammo and sells it above the market price the result is obvious. They are short circuiting the system.

And the ATF knows how people panic, hoard, and scalp. They know by just merely mentioning banning anything will cause a shortage and price increases. They tried to ban the AR-15 and failed. So, knowing what they know they propose banning a type of ammo the AR 15 fires to achieve the next best thing to a ban. A panic and run on all AR 15 ammunition. They end up with a defacto ban. Its up to us to stop it.

 

[ClayCow]

It's easy to understand if you would simply read, or comprehend, what has been said and watch what scalpers are doing. The market prices are set by the producer and passed down to the seller. That price is determined by the demand of the consumer. When douchebags come in and buys all of a particular ammo and sells it above the market price the result is obvious. They are short circuiting the system.

And the ATF knows how people panic, hoard, and scalp. They know by just merely mentioning banning anything will cause a Shoshan shortage and price increases. They tried to ban the AR-15 and failed. So, knowing what they know they purpose banning a type of ammo the AR 15 fires to achieve the next best thing to a ban. A panic and run on all AR 15 ammunition. They end up with a defacto ban. Its up to us to stop it.

I dont think you understand how this works. Sure panic will drive up prices and some "douchebag" ends up with a ton of ammo. All the ATF did was put alot of ammunition in someones house. If they dont follow through with the ban, producers make more and more ammo appears. It might be more expensive in the meanwhile to buy ammo but its not a ban. People are still buying and producing ammo. One isnt short circuiting the system, theyre being an entrepeneur and really riding on the foundations of capitalism. The douchebag fills a need. Maybe youre not understanding coming from a union background where it is essentially communism.

But im guessing youll say that i didnt comprehend and think that im dumb. But thats ok. Believe in your flawed theory and assumptions.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

I dont think you understand how this works. Sure panic will drive up prices and some "douchebag" ends up with a ton of ammo. All the ATF did was put alot of ammunition in someones house. If they dont follow through with the ban, producers make more and more ammo appears. It might be more expensive in the meanwhile to buy ammo but its not a ban. People are still buying and producing ammo. One isnt short circuiting the system, theyre being an entrepeneur and really riding on the foundations of capitalism. The douchebag fills a need. Maybe youre not understanding coming from a union background where it is essentially communism.

But im guessing youll say that i didnt comprehend and think that im dumb. But thats ok. Believe in your flawed theory and assumptions.

I take it you are one of those douchebags or at least the type that would do what they do. Otherwise you wouldn't be defending the act. Look at it this way....if they...you...whatever....didn't run out and grab up all the ammo (along with their family and friends that are in on the act) there would still be some available for the rest of us to buy at the true market driven price. So, I get it that others may clear the shelves as well but the price increase due to that demand never matches the price gouging that douchebag scalpers slap on their "scores." That is how it works and I understand it. You clearly don't. They are, in fact, short circuiting the system. And those who buy from them are part of the problem too. Now go sleep in your car near the loading dock at Walmart and watch for a delivery, or simply loiter in the store and wait for more ammo to be stocked if thats your thing, and stop wasting my time.

 

[ClayCow]

I take it you are one of those douchebags or at least the type that would do what they do. Otherwise you wouldn't be defending the act. Look at it this way....if they...you...whatever....didn't run out and grab up all the ammo (along with their family and friends that are in on the act) there would still be some available for the rest of us to buy at the true market driven price. So, I get it that others may clear the shelves as well but the price increase due to that demand never matches the price gouging that douchebag scalpers slap on their "scores." That is how it works and I understand it. You clearly don't. They are, in fact, short circuiting the system. And those who buy from them are part of the problem too. Now go sleep in your car near the loading dock at Walmart and watch for a delivery, or simply loiter in the store and wait for more ammo to be stocked if thats your thing, and stop wasting my time.

Not exactly sure i'm forcing you to be here either, so you're really wasting your own time.

Anyways, told ya he would react like this.

 

[Overpaid Union Thug]

Not exactly sure i'm forcing you to be here either, so you're really wasting your own time.

Anyways, told ya he would react like this.

What are you babbling about now? Forcing me to be here? When I said stop wasting my time it clearly meant wasting it with ignorant responses. But you can't really learn basic reading comprehension when you spend so much of your free time practically camping out at, (or simply being an "entrepreneur"), Walmarts and Academy stores. Although I have a feeling the list is actually allot longer than just two stores.