Can you add Magazine Disconnect or Safety?

[Realerikwood]

Hello, to all

Can anyone help me with this one, please?

I have a very specific list of criteria for a firearm purchase, and I don't know which way to go with it.

I have been in love with the M&P9c/M&P40c since I first held one in the shop some months back. It feels terrific in the hand, and has the size, and list of features I desire.

Thumb Safety
Magazine Disconnect
22lr pistol built on the same platform -suitable for cheap training. (I know, wrong size but good enough)

The only problem is that the Thumb Safety and Magazine disconnect are not currently offered on the same gun.

I called Smith and Wesson a couple of times to make sure I got a consensus of opinion from more than just one service rep. What I put together from all my conversations is that the model of gun I wanted (SWR206204FC or just 206204) is not among the current production lineup of pistols, but that they were offered by a few boutique dealerships at one time and might be again -provided there is a large enough order placed for them by a retailer.

Ugh. I only need one.

I googled the model number and saw that it is (or was) sold by a number of online dealers. However, all of them are "out of stock and cannot be backordered". That jives with what I was told on the telephone.

So, I have two options:
1. Scour the web auctions and online dealers and discussion groups and pray for one to become available
2. Build one myself

I strongly suspect that the better bet is to go with option 2. The question is how? I know there are tons of people who have purchased an M&P pistol with either the thumb safety or the magazine disconnect and removed them, so I imagine that there must be a way to add those pieces to a gun without them in the first place, right?

There is one caveat: I'll have to start with the right gun or the job can't be done. For instance, you apparently cannot add a thumb safety to a pistol with the internal locking mechanism because they occupy the same space and therefore cannot exist side by side. It's one or the other.

The next question is: do I start with a gun that has the magazine disconnect and add the thumb safety, or start with one with the thumb safety and add the magazine disconnect? Which one is the more difficult task? And are there any internal parts which need to be replaced before the additional parts are installed?

Thanks guys. I hope this question wasn't too overly verbose. But I do sincerely appreciate the benefit of anyone's insight who might have some knowledge or experience with this sort of work

Best
Erik

 

[1fly2ty]

e.lectronic
I can't help but notice that this is your first post, so let me give you my opion on what your asking for.
First the M&P is a safe action pistol, that in all reality does not require a safety, if no safety makes you feel uncomfortable I can understand that, with practice of carrying a firearm, the comfort zone does get better. If you will notice all the Glocks have never had any kind of a safety,and that is becasue it is also a safe action pistol. The magazine safety is something that in a heated battle could be very problematic. If you have to do a tactical reload and you still have a round in the chamber when you drop the mag, the time to reload, the gun is totally useless. I tend to think of things in real time situations and it is one less thing to think about, when the $--t hits the proverbial fan. If you ever have the opportunity to read some of te things that Jeff Cooper wrote you would learn alot about shooting philosophies, one notable quote is with regard to safe action pistols and goes like this "adding a safety to a safe action pistol is like looking for a solution to a non existent problem" ! If you are still determined to have a safety, by all means do it, and I would suspect that if you can fiind one with thunb safety adding the mag disconnect would be a very easy task, and I would even bet there are guys on this site that would send you the part because plenty of guys remove them, myself included! Don't know if this helps but good luck with your search.

 

[arrowslinger#1]

You cannot add the thumb safety to a gun that does not have one already.

The mag safety is more of a "get you killed" feature than anything.
I wouldn't have it on any gun - I even have a ruger 22/45 that I plan on taking it out of.

 

[Realerikwood]

Thanks for the replies

@arrowslinger#1

Thanks for that fact. I'll make sure to get the thumb safety model as a starting point for adding the magazine safety since it cannot be done the other way 'round.

@1fly2ty

Thanks for the reply as well. I should explain a bit of my thinking...

Firstly, I am married to a wonderful wife who would insist upon all the safety features I could get my hands on. That's fine with me, as long as I can get the gun in the end. I've narrowed down my list of choices to the Glock subcompacts and the M&P compacts. I steered towards the M&P because they offer factory built thumb and magazine safeties where Glock does not. It's really that simple. I will endeavor to train on this platform diligently, so as to minimize any issues which might arise with the additional complicated functionality.
I appreciate the notion that a safe action pistol does not need anything extra, but certain states, and certain spouses do, so I'm willing to compromise to get what I need. Besides, if I opted for a revolver, I'd have the same problem with my gun lacking function during a reload. I don't really consider it a problem. I'll just get really good at reloading. Plus, there is the valid argument that dropping the magazine during a struggle will level the playing field should an assailant get the weapon out of your hands.

Thanks again, guys, for the replies. I appreciate them both.

-Erik

 

[catcus-jack]

I will bet your wife insists you don't run with scissors either.

 

[Silversmok3]

Do not listen to the naysayers who disparage the magazine disconnect. More than a few lawmen are drawing breath today because of that feature.I have yet to see a documented incident of someone dying because of an inability to fire one shot without a magazine inserted.

A majority of civilian gun owners will not need to do more than present the weapon to prevent criminal attack. Should a live shooting follow it is unlikely the bad guy and any accomplices will hang around long enough to require a reload after 15 or more rounds are expended.

In fact semi-automatic pistols do not work well without a magazine in place. Shooting one that way is a good technique to generate a stovepipe malfunction, as there is nothing but air beneath the spent case during the ejection cycle.One must then clear the malfunction before reloading.

Insofar as adding features is concerned, it is wiser to either select the pistol on has in mind directly or seek a different model. I will not disparage the M&P lineup in the least, but in this instance it may be a better move to purchase a Ruger SR9 or SR40 which comes equipped with a magazine disconnect & external safety from the factory or -my personal recommendation-a used 3rd Generation S&W with the same feature.

3rd generation S&W pistols can be had in any combination of size, caliber, trigger action, and are retailing now for decent prices.A 5946 DAO generally runs under $500 shipped on gunbroker at this time, and has a Double action only trigger system in addition to a magazine disconnect.A 5906 or 5904 would work also in the role of a traditional DA first pull with an external safety.

 

[forresth]

if a safety lets you relax around a gun, you should NOT have it. It would be much better the feel insecure and act cautiously than behave recklessly because of some failure prone gadget. This goes to basic safe gun handling. using a plastic chamber flag when empty, would be a much safer practice to get into and should offer much more piece of mind. My 22a has a magazine interlock. I may leave it in place since I don't consider it a self defense gun and I intend to use it to teach my young children to shoot, but I haven't decided yet.

Thumb safety vs. no thumb safety, I prefer my guns that have none. I have some guns with safeties I don't trust. Remington 700 ring a bell? I also have an old side-by-side 12 gauge who's safety only prevents you from pulling the trigger, but doesn't prevent the seer from slipping, say if it were to fall. I have other guns I haven't taken apart enough to see how the safety works, so I am unsure about them. My XDm (similar to the M&P) I trust. I took a peak at all the safety interlocks on that gun. It is much more reassuring than just some switch that blocks the trigger.
Even my in-line muzzle loader with no external safety, I trust more than some guns with safeties. I leave the hammer down until I am ready to shoot and there is a transfer bar safety (I think that is what it is called). The hammer can't strike the firing pin unless I pull the trigger, as it would be block from going past the neutral position. If the trigger were pulled when the hammer was not pulled, the hammer wouldn't have the momentum to make it past the neutral position. there are 2 things that must happen at the same time for the gun to fire, and with reasonable care, they won't happen unless I want them to.

Once again, the little lever is just giving your wife a false sense of security. It is much better to actually know what is going on with the gun so any sense of security is real and she will better respect the weapon.

Educate your woman and yourself on the mechanics involved and you'll both be more responsible (joint) gun owners.

the M&P is incapable of firing unless the trigger is pulled. respect the trigger, and you'll be fine.

 

[SMMAssociates]

e.lectronick:

Welcome aboard!

To be honest, IMHO, both the magazine and thumb safeties aren't necessary in the M&P design.

To add a magazine safety, though, you need a couple of little springs, and a little lever. Probably cost more to ship 'em than to buy the actual parts. Pretty much nothing to it if you are used to mucking about with little bits of metal and pesky springs. Either sear block assembly can accept the magazine safety if it didn't come with one.

The thumb safety is another story.... You have to start with a sear block that is designed to accept one. There are a couple of little parts that have to be there, or the thing won't work. This precludes the Hilary Lock. (If you even mention that to your wife, we'll toss you off the board .) The "standard" sear block is designed to accept the Hilary Lock....

You should be able to buy a thumb-safety ready sear block from Speed Shooters, but I'm not sure. (Just FWIW, you can easily remove a thumb safety from a gun that came with one. Going the other way can be a real mess.)

If you add the mag safety, btw, your gun will still likely have the "this gun can be fired without a magazine" warning on the side. That tends to upset some of us....

(A "Hilary Lock" is a key-operated lock built into the gun to keep it from working when you need it. Just about any other "safe" sort of thing is a better idea, although it looks like the design used in the M&P would be reliable v.s. the ones used in at least some models of their revolvers. A "sear block" is a hunk of steel towards the rear of the gun that holds the sear, magazine safety lever, sear disabling lever - used to strip the gun for cleaning, thumb safety cam & spring - if you have that version, and the Hilary Lock.)

What I'd do.... Buy the thumb safety version and add the magazine safety. Some magic marker over the "message" and you're done. Five minute job if you can find the parts. The springs just hold things in place, and about anything will work, but the lever itself is a "part" you need to buy.

If you can't get a thumb safety model, talk to Speed Shooters and see if they have the block and the few extra parts involved. You will have to cut notches in the plastic grip assembly to fit the thumb safety lever, but that's pretty trivial. Adding a mag safety to that block wouldn't be a problem.

About the only real concern here, and I'm always preaching this, is to never remove a manufacturer-supplied safety device from a carry gun. IMHO, "civilian" Concealed Carry probably won't be an issue, but LEO's worry about this should they end up in Civil Court.

Regards,

 

[geoff40]

Another solution is to not routinely keep a round loaded in the chamber. For us average Joe's out here, do we seriously need a pistol kept in this state at all times? Can we justify it with real world statistics?
I don't think so. To each their own. If I am involved in a situation where a loaded, fire-ready pistol is the only thing that might save my life, I doubt I am going to survive the incident in the first place. It only takes a brief moment to rack the slide.

 

[Beemer-mark]

I certainly am not a newbie, but reading this post got me thinking -- what the heck does a magazine disconnect protect you from? I've never had a gun that had one. Is there a difference in the level of safety if the gun has one round in the chamber versus one round in the chamber with a magazine? Poor gun handling is going to get you killed either way.

 

[Silversmok3]

I certainly am not a newbie, but reading this post got me thinking -- what the heck does a magazine disconnect protect you from? I've never had a gun that had one. Is there a difference in the level of safety if the gun has one round in the chamber versus one round in the chamber with a magazine? Poor gun handling is going to get you killed either way.

A magazine disconnect in practical use has little to do with administrative gun handling. A moron negligent enough to mishandle a firearm won't be deterred by any safety.

Rather, a MD was included based on S&W's research with the Illinois State Police who adopted the original Model 39s back in the day as service pistols.A number of their troopers are alive today because when the crook got their duty weapons the troopers ejected the mags and prevented the bad guy from killing them. Remember in Law Enforcement police have to be in conversation distance from suspect to gather information and determine details about crimes and incidents. The Tuller Drill establishes that a man with a knife at 21 feet away is a threat, and LE routinely operates at conversation distances.That close anyone can grab a duty weapon before the LEO knows what to do, and that MD can mean the difference between survival and being shot with one's own weapon.

As far as civilian use goes the MD has more of a use when a citizen needs to disable a weapon on the fly. Say one has to visit a "no carry" zone like a post office or hospital. Barring metal detectors or other safety concerns with carrying loaded magazines, eject the mag and take it with you. If a crook steals the vehicle they don't get a functional firearm in the process. Come back to car, stick mag back in and go on with the day.

Staying the night at a friends place ,and said friend has kids but no gun safe or secure storage apparatus? No problem. With an MD equipped weapon all the owner need do is eject and maintain control of the magazine. Should trouble come knocking once the mag is in the gun its ready to go.

 

[southchatham]

Don't listen to anyone telling you not to get something you want. If you want a safety and a magazine disconnect find and buy that gun. Their are reasons for and against both, you decide what's best for you.

 

[southchatham]

I certainly am not a newbie, but reading this post got me thinking -- what the heck does a magazine disconnect protect you from? I've never had a gun that had one. Is there a difference in the level of safety if the gun has one round in the chamber versus one round in the chamber with a magazine? Poor gun handling is going to get you killed either way.

I have 2 M&P's, one has a mag disconnect, one does not. If you have kids and want to disable your ccw gun when you get home you just have to remove the magazine, rather than unloading the chamber which can scar a casing or cause bullet setback if done often. Their are reasons, people should choose what they want.

 

[chuck s]

The list of policemen (who are civilians, by the way) "saved" by a magazine disconnect is probably about the same length as drivers who were "saved" in a wreck because they were thrown clear of the wreck because they were not wearing their seat belt. Want to play those odds?

The argument for a magazine disconnect is as specious as that for not wearing your seat belt.

During training courses we often see students engage targets without magazines in their pistols or with unseated magazines. If the chamber is loaded they at least get one shot -- if they don't have a magazine disconnect.

Fortunately the M&P design allows the magazine disconnect to be easily removed. Same for the frame safety lock.

-- Chuck

 

[SMMAssociates]

Another solution is to not routinely keep a round loaded in the chamber. For us average Joe's out here, do we seriously need a pistol kept in this state at all times? Can we justify it with real world statistics?
I don't think so. To each their own. If I am involved in a situation where a loaded, fire-ready pistol is the only thing that might save my life, I doubt I am going to survive the incident in the first place. It only takes a brief moment to rack the slide.

Geoff:

(Gonna pick on you.... )

This method, often called "Israeli Carry", presumes that you'll have two hands free, should there be a problem, or be skilled at "hang the rear sight off the edge of a table" sorts of techniques. On the range, for example, you may have plenty of time. In a real-world situation, not as much....

The name, allegedly, comes from the Israeli government providing (I have to add "at one time") a weapon for anybody who stopped in the local PD and asked for one. Since the mix of available guns was quite large, and quite varied, it was decided that teaching people to leave all the safety equipment OFF, and to chamber a round at the quickest possible moment. Probably better than trying to teach the average Joe how to work the safety on an M39, but it's kinda slow.

This may be a safety advantage, but it also requires a degree of situational awareness that may not be easy, not to mention a local Law Enforcement attitude that "showing the gun" is OK when you think you have a "situation". Try that around here....

Not, IMHO, a good idea....

****

The magazine disconnect does make the gun safer should you need to de-activate it for some reason, and is pretty quick. However, should the stuff hit the fan, actually dropping the magazine may be a problem, and you may want to retrieve it later should you find that you managed to keep the upper hand. Again, IMHO, not a really good idea.

Mom used to say "what if somebody takes your gun from you?" It's possible (seems to be more likely in "Open Carry" situations), but we are obliged to think about weapon retention. In concealed carry situations, you're probably not in much danger there anyway until you actually present the weapon. There is training available for this....

Regards,

 

[Silversmok3]

The list of policemen (who are civilians, by the way) "saved" by a magazine disconnect is probably about the same length as drivers who were "saved" in a wreck because they were thrown clear of the wreck because they were not wearing their seat belt. Want to play those odds?

Challenge Accepted.


From a Law Enforcement forum:

We issued S&W autos for 32 years. They all had mag disconnects. I personally know 4 of our guys during my career who were saved by the mag disconnect. 3 of those were Troops and 1 was one of our dispatchers who was working part time at a small town. In 2 of the cases the Troops said that as they knew they were losing control of the firearm their thought was to hit the mag button. The other 2 said they don't recall hitting the mag button and it may have been hit accidently. In all 4 incidents after the bad guys had gotten their guns they had attempt to shoot our guys. Either way all 4 lived out their careers because the mag disconnect saved their lives.
In the 32 years that we issued S&W we did not have a single incident where the mag disconnect caused our person to be hurt or killed.
Sure a good holster is important. So is good weapon retention tactics and repeated training. But as with everything in life there's a guy name Murphy who rides with all of us. A good holster can be defeated. No matter how good and how much training you do with weapons retention there will always be someone stronger, quicker, more powerful, and they all have the ability to act first. Dropping the mag to disable your firearm is just another tool in the tool box.


source:Magazine Disconnect [Archive] - Police Forums & Law Enforcement Forums @ Officer.com

The argument for a magazine disconnect is as specious as that for not wearing your seat belt.

This is a false comparison. A magazine disconnect may just save someone's life. Driving without a seatbelt only puts the individual at risk needlessly in a car.

During training courses we often see students engage targets without magazines in their pistols or with unseated magazines. If the chamber is loaded they at least get one shot -- if they don't have a magazine disconnect.

I do not see a frequent problem of individuals in and out of uniform requiring more than 15 rounds to stop an attack.Even line police officers rarely are involved in shootings demanding multiple reloads. Most criminals flee at the mere sight of a target producing a weapon, to say nothing of sticking around for a shootout afterwards. Of the times shots were fired generally speaking the situation was over one way or another inside of 10 rounds. The argument could be put forth that needing a spare magazine at all is superfluous, to say nothing of shooting whilst the magazine is out.

Balance the unlikely event of being in a Matix & Platt type extended shootout against the near certain probability of the user to either safe or clear a firearm for administrative purposes, and the magazine disconnect makes more sense.

I submit that more kids are dead because a handgun wasn't secured , and many more cops are dead because the crook got the gun away from them, than good people are dead because in a drawn out gunfight the ability to shoot that one round in the chamber accurately was denied to them.

 

[chuck s]

Policemen only hit their targets about 17% of the time so high capacity magazines (and spares) are vital when 83% of the bullets miss. My data from New York City (about 40,000 policemen) is old so maybe this is better these days? 2/3 of the shots fired at less than 3 yards miss!

In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:
Less than 3 yards ..... 28%
3 yards to 7 yards .... 11%
7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

And the magazine remains the weak point of all self loading firearms so a spare magazine is prudent anyway.

I will acknowledge a magazine disconnect disables the pistol if left around where children can play with it. Somehow locking up the pistol seems just as easy as just locking up the magazines.

-- Chuck

 

[Realerikwood]

RE: Running with scissors

I will bet your wife insists you don't run with scissors either.

No matter which way you look at it, it's a far sight better than a wife who insists that I DO run with scissors.



Erik

 

[Realerikwood]

@ Silversmok3
4 separate documented incidents of lives saved vs. 0 documented incidents of lives lost due to a magazine disconnect?

As to the outcome of this challenge, I say:

Game, set, match, and victory dance.

Thank you for the statistical support of my position. Despite the fact that I was attempting to elicit a how-to discussion, I knew I was in danger of inviting the usual opinionated arguments about the purity of the "safe action" pistol. So, I was quite heartened to see your and others' well informed and thoughtful responses dispelling the propaganda.

I think I have enough information to begin. I will continue to look for the factory built model. In the event I cannot source one somewhere, I will know to start with a thumb safety model and add the magazine disconnect to it.

Thanks everyone for your input.
Erik.

 

[kbm6893]

I personally know TWO cops who are here today due to the mag disconnect. And I have yet to find ONE instance of a mag disconnect causing the owner to be injured.

Let's come back to planet earth: The odds of you being in a shootout are very small. The odds of you having the presence of mind to drop a partially filled mag and do a tactical reload are I would say ZERO, unless you have had some serious training, and by serious training I mean special forces or at least combat training in the military. A weekend at Blackwater might make you FEEL like some "operator", but you're not.

The odds of you dropping that magazine in the middle of the gunfight are even smaller than even getting into a gunfight. Now suppose you do drop that mag, now you have that one shot, and IF you even hit the guy, unless it's a head, spinal cord, or heart shot, the guy won't instantly be down, so now you have a gun with the slide not locked back, meaning it will require two hands to reload that gun with a guy on you. Think you'll be able to pull that off? I don't.

I almost bought an M&P and wanted those same features. When I couldn't get one, I stuck with my tried and true 5906. that (or any other 3rd gen S&W), will have the features you want.

I wish all my guns had a mag disconenct and a safety. My new carry gun is a Ruger LC9, purchased specifically because it had those features.