Carrying W/Empty Chamber

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by KKG:

Originally posted by TwoGunsStanding:
...(sometimes called the Israeli technique)...

I have no idea where you got this idea from but even 40 Years ago the Israeli's I had dealings with all carried in Condition 1 and as they aren't a stupid people I doubt they would have 'changed' this particular "policy" so I'd call this "Gun Rag BS" and nothing but.

I do know that 40 Years ago it was US Military Policy to carry with an empty chamber and I have noted that within the last couple of years that it appears that this "Policy" hasn't changed, at least on US soil. When I was required to go armed while on Duty and in Uniform I did carry my sidearm on my belt in that condition because I knew I might be checked but by that time I had already begun "carry concealed" even while in Uniform and that sidearm was 'cocked and locked' and this idea of carrying an empty gun might have had something to do with my not reenlisting. I walked too many Guard Mounts with empty firearms. Of course, once I became my own boss and during the 13 months in RVN I NEVER "carried" without being 'cocked and locked' - regulations or not - neither did any of the 'people' who worked for me.

So, if you want to call this 'technique' by a particular name you SHOULD call it the "the Stupid US Military Regulation Technique"!!!

Some Israeli units absolutely do carry with an empty chamber. I know because they've trained with some of our operators at Quantico and my boss had an interesting discussion about it with them.

This wasn't the normal police routine, but military and other government agencies that carried this way.

Actually, it should be called the " Stupid US Army and Navy/Marine Corps" method.

The USAF security police (now security forces) always carry handguns (M9) with a round in the chamber and the decocker/safety off. I carried one that way for six years. They do carry rifles with an empty chamber, but that's simply because the M16/M4 safety can easily get knocked off and there is no firing pin spring to overcome or block to keep it from discharging from a hard fall etc.

 

[WC145]

The USAF security police (now security forces) always carry handguns (M9) with a round in the chamber and the decocker/safety off. I carried one that way for six years. They do carry rifles with an empty chamber, but that's simply because the M16/M4 safety can easily get knocked off and there is no firing pin spring to overcome or block to keep it from discharging from a hard fall etc.

That's intersting to know. Back when I was an SP (early 80's) we still had .38's so it was never an issue with sidearms. Our M-16's were carried with a loaded mag, empty chamber, guess that hasn't changed in 25+ years.

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by casingpoint:
If you attacker is so close that you don't have time to draw and rack a slide, you probably don't have time left for any type of gun. By then, you must have a fixed blade knife, kuboton, slap, metal flashlight or other hand held instrument at the ready and instantly deployable, or you will be overtaken in what amounts to an unarmed state. Once you stun your attacker with any of these means, you will then be able to pull your semi automatic pistol and rack the slide. You hope.

Inside a certain distance, one has a higher probability of immediately stopping an attacker with any of the instruments described above, especially a knife. So a gun can be in a secondary role to begin with once the distance closes.

That might be what you think, but you do say "probably don't have time" so at least sometimes you WILL have time to draw the weapon and employ it.

I have worked with a fair number of people who have had to use lethal force with a handgun and in only one of those cases was the bad guy any reasonable distance away (15-20yds). All the others ended up being some sort of struggle. The most recent was a struggle in the small area in front of an elevator...swirling around bouncing off the walls/doors to the elevator until the good guy was able to draw his concealed Glock 27 and put two contact shots through the bad guys ribcage....fight stopped instantly.

One that ended up without a shot fired was where one of my instructors was grabbed by a huge guy and picked up by his shoulders...he got his gun hand free, drew his weapon, stuck it in the center of the guys sternum and started to press the trigger when the bad guy let go, put his hands up and went down to his knees....no time to rack the slide.

The one time I started to press the trigger on a bad guy, he was about 5-7ft away when I saw what was happening. I had just enough time to draw, index on his chest and that caused him to freeze in this tracks....no time to mess with racking the slide.

One thing that advocates of this method absolutely overlook or don't know about is what happens to fine motor skills under pressure/adrenaline. You lose the ability to perform such actions smoothly, effectively or at all. This can make racking the slide a lot harder than it seems. I'm a very active competitive shooter and pretty frequently we have unloaded starts. Grab the gun, grab a mag off the table, insert, rack and start shooting. I practice this and have years of experience doing it, so the butterflys aren't nearly what they were years ago. I still am not as fast or smooth at it when I'm amped up at a big match where the adrenaline is pumping and I've got twenty people standing behind me watching....it's even worse for people who don't practice, don't have the experience and get really nervous (or both). I can't tell you how many huge screwups you see when watching this sort of start....even really, really good shooters that put a couple thousand rounds downrange every month fall victim to this.

To think that you're going to be able to draw, rack the slide and get a hit on a bad guy in any sort of reasonable timeframe is silly.

I can do an honest .8s draw and hit on anything inside 7yds from a normal (non-race style) holster (like a Safariland 568 paddle that I use for some matches) if things go right. If I fumble it a little, it's still going to be 1.0s give or take. Add in a slide rack and it's now probably 2.25 or something along those lines.

Why give the bad guys ANY chance at beating you? It's pretty unlikely for the average person to ever have to defend themselves, but think how foolish you'd feel if that one-in-a-million chance happens and you're wrestling with some monster thinking "boy, I sure wish I had a round in the chamber".....bad, bad, silly, stupid idea. As long as it's a modern weapon, it's more than safe enough to carry with a round in the chamber. If it's not, get something that is. R,

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by WC145:

The USAF security police (now security forces) always carry handguns (M9) with a round in the chamber and the decocker/safety off. I carried one that way for six years. They do carry rifles with an empty chamber, but that's simply because the M16/M4 safety can easily get knocked off and there is no firing pin spring to overcome or block to keep it from discharging from a hard fall etc.

That's intersting to know. Back when I was an SP (early 80's) we still had .38's so it was never an issue with sidearms. Our M-16's were carried with a loaded mag, empty chamber, guess that hasn't changed in 25+ years.

Yeah, the M16 carry mode probably won't ever change.

When I was a security police shift commander at Andrews I also had Navy SP's and Marine MP's working for me...they couldn't believe that they were actually going to be allowed to carry with a round in the chamber.

I will note that all of the services carry loaded weapons when protecting "special weapons" like the stuff we put in silos or boomer subs, but I think that's driven by the DOD 5210.41M rather than service regs. R,

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

KKG and G-manBart said it pretty well. It's pretty hard to believe that there are (otherwise) sane people who would carry a pistol without a round in the chamber. There are plenty of safe autos these days, but even if there were none, that would simply tell you why you should carry a revolver.

If your auto is not safe, sell it and buy a gun that is. If the gun is OK but you're scared to carry it right, either get familiar with it, or sell it and buy a gun that you can carry right. Do you think that you will always have two hands available? Do you think that good autoloaders never fail to feed manually under stress? Do you think that pants-cocking or belt-cocking an autoloader is a safer and more reliable maneuver than carrying with a round in the chamber? If you do, you need to learn a lot more before carrying a gun, particularly an autoloader.

Get a revolver and a decent holster to hold you until you learn a little more about guns.

I apologize for the fairly forceful way I have chosen to express myself. I do it, however, because I believe that you asked an honest question in good faith, and deserve a similar answer which I believe to be in your best interest.

Hope this helps.

 

[uncle norman]

I always carry in condition 1. What convinced me was thinking through what I'd do if caugt in a holdup or other bad situation with a group of people (convenience store, resturant, theater.) I wouldn't want to call immediate attention to myself by having to rack a slide. With my G19 I just have to ease it out of the holster and wait for a chance. No noise. No attention.

 

[Lee in Quartzsite]

Empty chamber, equals empty gun, equals carrying a brick.

 

[Centenniel]

Any handgun that needs to be carried with an unloaded chamber for safety reasons isn't one to consider for serious social purposes.

 

[00Buckshot62]

I've been on the defensive in dangerous incidents enough times in my life to know that if I can't make it go bang with only one hand under stress, I'd be better off with an impact weapon or a blade. For that reason, I'd never defensively carry an older striker fired design (such as a Browning Baby) that weren't designed to pass a drop test. I normally have a handgun accessible to each hand if I leave my home.

 

[Double-O-Dave]

My EDC primary is a J frame snubby in my strong side front pants pocket. My EDC back-up is a Seecamp .32ACP in the other front pants pocket. I always carry both fully loaded and ready to go (Condition 1 for the Seecamp). Larry Seecamp had great ideas for this small, last ditch pistol and I feel very comfortable with it as a back-up.

Best of luck,

Dave

 

[Steve H]

I would never choose to go for my knife before my gun

In that case, you should take some personal defense classes. At less than 20 feet, a blade is the superior weapon vs a handgun.
Beyond the ability to take out the threat, just ask any surgeon if they would rather work on a knife or gunshot wound.

Knowing how dangerous and fast a blade attack can be should prompt everyone who carries a gun to carry loaded and locked. And, maybe to carry a blade rather than another gun.

 

[Hoptob]

Read somewhere that #1 cause of LEO gunshot wounds in US is self inflicted, caused by holstering Glocks with finger on the trigger... Not that noone ever told them to keep that finger off the trigger, but fatigue and stress take their toll.

That's one (of many) reasons why I choose to carry revolvers (with rounds in all chambers).

Mike

 

[G-ManBart]

Originally posted by Steve H:

I would never choose to go for my knife before my gun

In that case, you should take some personal defense classes. At less than 20 feet, a blade is the superior weapon vs a handgun.
Beyond the ability to take out the threat, just ask any surgeon if they would rather work on a knife or gunshot wound.

Knowing how dangerous and fast a blade attack can be should prompt everyone who carries a gun to carry loaded and locked. And, maybe to carry a blade rather than another gun.

You're kidding right?

First off, I don't think the thread is about "knife versus gun" so I'm not sure what it adds to the original question.

Second, yes, a blade can be an extremely dangerous weapon in the hands of someone that knows what they're doing...no doubt, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily "superior" to a gun. A blade (other than a sword) has an extremly limited possibility of stopping a fight instantly, with one blow. With a gun, there are a number of situations where that's possible. There really isn't much of a central nervous system hit with a knife.

Using the whole "21 foot rule" to suggest a knife is superior is just silly. If the "victim" is armed with a handgun and knows how to move and shoot, the argument falls apart in both drills and real world. Sure, you have to learn/train how to do that, but it's not impossible.

All the 21 foot rule says is that it's the distance threshold a normal person can typically cover and strike you before can react and deliver return fire, but only if you don't move. If you move, the game changes entirely. If you stand your ground, block/blunt the cut/slash by accepting injury to the non-shooting hand/arm and deliver a contact shot to the CNS (head) the game changes too. It won't be pretty, but you can survive and win. There are a lot of scenarios that can play out, but to simply suggest a knife is superior is wishful thinking.

I recall going through an academy drill years ago. The instructors were demonstrating how a person taking a "quick peek" out from behind a wall were safe. "Nobody EVER hit them with gunfire even though the gun was pointed at where they'd appear from". Sure enough, the picked me to be the first shooter. When the guy did his quick peek I popped him right between the eyes (on his goggles) with a sim round. The instructor's just stood there and said "that's never happened before". Yeah, and they must not have ever put a competitive shooter up who has a TON of practice at shooting swingers that pop out just like that (me).

Taking a "rule" and blindly following it isn't usually the best bet. Try it out, test it and pick it to pieces. I have tested the 21 foot rule and if someone comes at me from 21 feet with a knife in the classic scenario, he might eventually wound me but he's getting shot...and a bunch of times at that.

To get back on topic, I'll add that in no uncertain terms do I think I could I move, rack the slide and shoot before the bad guy would be on me from 21ft....unless I had a LOT of room to run and move and put stuff between us.

Oh, and I do carry an automatic Benchmade Mini-Rukus and TWO guns, but I've thought about also carrying my auto Benchmade H&K blade in the opposite pocket as well...never know which hand might be free

 

[sipowicz]

Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is like pulling your shoulder harness across your chest and leaving it unbuckled until you think you are going to crash.

 

[Spotteddog]

Or buying a 686 Plus, in order to have a six shooter?

 

[feldspar13]

back in the early 80s when I worked as an armed
guard, one of my co-workers carried his .38
revolver with only 4 rounds in the cylinder
his reason was if he dropped the gun it would
have to go off twice before it fired.

 

[straightshooter1]

Let me add to the discussion of the 21 foot rule by saying, if you have seen that original video that we used teaching at the Police Academies well into the late 90s, that some officers were convinced that anything other than a gun was not a threat at any distance beyond which it could be, for example, swung at and hit the officer.

So, the gun stayed in the holster. That video served to illustrate that the gun should be out and the officer should be ready.

To be fair to the officers of that day, I recall citizens who were prosecuted by our Office for pointing a gun at someone who had a knife held in a threatening manner but was ten or more feet from the person with the gun (called Aggravated Assault).

The judges felt, when there was a Motion to Dismiss our charges, that the distance of ten or so feet meant the knife was no danger and, therefore, the pointing of a firearm was not in self-defense. Bad news for the person with the gun as Florida had long had the 3 year minimum mandatory prison term for crimes with a firearm.

Hard to believe "we" were so ignorant back in the 80s, but that video helped to change the attitude of courts and prosecutors about the danger of edged weapons and the speed at which one could be employed, at least in my area of Florida.

As to the idea of carrying a pistol with an empty chamber, I say, as respectfully as I can, that the person who does that is an idiot. If you are worried about it going "bang" when you don't want it to, then carry a revolver.

Bob

 

[Agent6-3/8]

Originally posted by sipowicz:
Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is like pulling your shoulder harness across your chest and leaving it unbuckled until you think you are going to crash.

+1


I always carry with a round in the chamber. carrying a defensive side arm in anything other than a condition of readiness is a bad idea, IMO.

Odd are you'll never need your side arm, but if you do you're likely going to need it in a hurry. SD shooting are fast violent and up close. If your pistol is not ready to fire as soon as you clear leather you're apt to be shot or stabbed by the other guy.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[casingpoint]

Sip said, and I

Carrying a gun with an empty chamber is like pulling your shoulder harness across your chest and leaving it unbuckled until you think you are going to crash

If you are on top of things, you will be able to apply the brakes and postpone the crash long enough buckle up.

Thanks, Barb. The Walther PPS, assuming it has no mechanical bugs remaining, is looking like the frontrunner in concealed semi automatic carry for personal SD.

 

[TwoGunsStanding]

See? That's why I started this discussion. Cocked and locked is NOT for everybody. That is why some carry DA autos and revolvers. Some guns (with FP safeties like the Series 80 Colts, later Kimbers, etc,) have a margin of safety if OFF safe and dropped. Let's take an older Colt 1908 .380, or Browning Hi Power. I have carried both cocked and locked, and on several occasions, the safety has been "wiped" to the off position, becasue both have safeties that don't "click" into place. I have even found some 1911A1's with safety off due to holsters, getting bumped, etc. Sure, the grip safety is a margin of safety if dropped, but a tuned 1911 type gun witn no other safeties on can go off if dropped the wrong way. There are other guns, many of which are as worthy to carry as a Model 36 S&W snub. I carried a DA magnum revolver for many years as a cop, and a 1911 pattern gun off duty for an equal amount of time. After evaluating all the dangerous aand potentially dangerous situations I was in, including the disarming of bad guys on two different occasion on my own, I have come to have a "feel" for iminent threats and danger, and shy of a "without warning, in-your-face" gun that I possibly won't see coming, I don't feel like I am THAT far behind to snag my gun and rack the slide. Once again, I know this is a trade off, and I am at risk in that statistically rare incident. If it makes one feel wasrm and fuzzy, and all that much more the master of their environment to be "cocked and locked, beat-you-to-the-draw ready", then so be it. I had a gun work it's way out of a holster once, too, in an examination room in a hospital. Didn't go off, but having a chamber loaded, tricked up auto hit a tile floor might still make me choke a bit until I recover from the fright and embarrasment. Ever hear of the guy who hung his Glock on the hook in the toilet stall, only to have it bump the trigger as he was hanging it, and have it go off several times recoiling against the hook and trigger, perpendicular from where he was standing? I have made a habit of putting my gun down in my pants between my legs where I know where it is and can easily draw it if needed. One of the officer's I worked with left his pistol BEHIND the toilet once (that's where he had gotten used to putting it when using the john), and FORGOT it there. That is REALLY embarassing. As we have seen from the responses, just about anything goes, as long as the user knows WHAT his plan is. Some might err on the side of safety, and some go with speed of presentation. It's always a compromise.