Erich
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Carrying W/Empty Chamber
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230therapy
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Let's cut the theorizing and go into testing.
With an Airsoft gun, run the following with and without a loaded chamber.
The attacker will need boxing or martial arts gloves. He will try to hit you HARD.
Only the results matter, not the theory. A good "referee" will be required to keep things reasonable.
All scenarios assume that the conditions for lethal force have been met for whatever reason.
The question we're answering is:
Can you get the gun out and place a round somewhere on your attacker?
1) Unarmed attacker.
Gun holstered. Attacker w/in [15,10,5,3] feet. The attacker closes the gap and grabs you.
2) Attacker armed with knife
Gun holstered. Attacker w/in [15,10,5,3] feet. The attacker closes the gap and attempts to stab you with a training knife.
3) Attacker with Airsoft gun
Gun holstered. Attacker w/in [15,10,5,3] feet. The attacker closes the gap and attempts to shoot you.
4) Unarmed attacker in contact
Attacker has his hand on you and is kicking, punching and grappling.
Variants include multiples, though more than two is probably not useful.
All this argument means nothing without testing.
With an Airsoft gun, run the following with and without a loaded chamber.
The attacker will need boxing or martial arts gloves. He will try to hit you HARD.
Only the results matter, not the theory. A good "referee" will be required to keep things reasonable.
All scenarios assume that the conditions for lethal force have been met for whatever reason.
The question we're answering is:
Can you get the gun out and place a round somewhere on your attacker?
1) Unarmed attacker.
Gun holstered. Attacker w/in [15,10,5,3] feet. The attacker closes the gap and grabs you.
2) Attacker armed with knife
Gun holstered. Attacker w/in [15,10,5,3] feet. The attacker closes the gap and attempts to stab you with a training knife.
3) Attacker with Airsoft gun
Gun holstered. Attacker w/in [15,10,5,3] feet. The attacker closes the gap and attempts to shoot you.
4) Unarmed attacker in contact
Attacker has his hand on you and is kicking, punching and grappling.
Variants include multiples, though more than two is probably not useful.
All this argument means nothing without testing.
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Hmmmmm. Some folks think the appropriate response to a good man with a knife is 500 yards and a scoped rifle....
And if he is within 15 (fifteen!!!) feet, OMG!!!
230therapy
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Agreed...but the reality is...up close and personal. We need to learn how to at least survive this sort of attack.
These drills will show that carrying a gun with an empty chamber is not a viable option given the conditions presented. These conditions are realistic and occur during street crimes.
I challenge ANYBODY to successfully draw, work the slide, and still get hits while being struck hard. It's difficult enough to reload when someone has you by the shoulders and pack and is throwing you around some. I know how much more difficult it is when someone is at bad breath distance and doing everything he can to mess you up with punches, kicks, throws, and grappling.
When I see responses like "I'll use my awareness to avoid all situations", I just think "That's wishful thinking!" Such thinking typically comes from people who think their gun will save them no matter what. Ten minutes with SouthNarc or Tom Sotis will cure them of any and all such illusions.
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TwoGunsStanding
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I just can't sit here. Do you REALLY think that MOST CCW carriers are going to be braindead at the time of attack? I LIKE TO THINK that one is going to be a LITTLE aware of surroundings, impending threats, shady people, etc. I scope my surroundings, and if I see something that looks ominous, I might cut a wide girth. I might just slip out of sight if possible to CHAMBER MY ROUND, should I be with THAT gun at THAT time. I have been without a gun, and retrieved a gun from a vehicle, etc, and responded to a crime in progress that I spotted. Let's face it, boys and girls, if you are dead in the head, and don't see your attacker before he gets into point blank range, and he beats you to the draw before you respond, and IF he means to kill you, then most likely you are not going to BEAT him. You may get of a shot, too, and yours may be better than his, but the fastest man alive is not going to beat the bad guy who draws first and INTENDS to fire. You can TRY, but reaction time will cost you. Seeing him coming at you, making furtive moves (I LOVE that term), threatening before he produces a weapon, etc. Hell, I think I've talked myself into carring cocked and cocked. To hell with locked. Why fool with a safety? I'd trust the grip safety; never failed me yet. Then I'd beat the guy who has his on safe! It'd be even faster than a DA REVOLVER. What do you guys think of that, cocked, no safety (i.e. 1911)?
Lee in Quartzsite
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Evil One
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The most dangerous threats are the ones that dont look like threats.
Guy in a polo shirt and slacks can be just as much danger as the guy in the sagging pants, oversized jacked, and sideways ball cap.
You can justify it to yourself all you want.
Someone who slips thru your initial scan and gets to contact range is a LOT more of a threat for an unarmed/unchambered person than one who has a round in the pipe and the hammer back.
You can do all the 1 handed drills... cocking it with you shoe, belt, teeth...
But when a person is using the weak arm to keep an attacker away enough to get their pistol out... having a round in the chamber is more than a 1/2 second difference than in an "everything goes right" situation.
Pistol on strong side, either a revolver or pistol with a round in the chamber, and anyone close enough to contact you is a potential attacker.
Paranoid? Perhaps... but I will have a lot better chance in a worst case scenario than someone who has to go thru extra steps.
And I, personally, carry a gun just because the worst case could just happen.
Jim
Erich
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I have decided to unload my carry guns and keep the ammo in another room.
I'll load them if I have trouble and need to use them.
230therapy
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I find it interesting that gun people (shooters, CCWer's, cops, whatever) tend to think in terms of the gun.
If the guy is close up, the solution is *probably* not really weapons based. The true solution is *probably* something along the lines of seizing the initiative by moving off the line of force (or soon to be line of force), and doing an unarmed attack such that his OODA loop gets reset. Mess up their plan for you in that spot. Your weapon may never come out...or you may get it out very quickly because you generated the opportunity to do so.
Let's reiterate:
Move
Attack and/or move
Attack and/or move
Attack and/or move
Attack and/or move
...until done
Every serious hit resets his OODA loop.
AMOK! (knife fighting with unarmed combatives) is the art of cruelty. For some reason, we gun people tend to forget that gun fighting is also the art of cruelty. Our psychology tends toward what's comfy and easy for us: "Oh, well, we'll be AWARE of our surroundings and when that fails we'll just go to the gun."
Testing people...does that attitude generate the desired results? I think not.
If you're not serious about being cruel with your gun, because you're concerned about "safety", then you're not concerned about survival. Your mindset is fixed in "no risk" mode versus a winning mode. We're talking about killing another human being in one of the highest risk situations possible (goblin pointing a gun at you)...and you're concerned about safety?
Don't carry a gun because you have no business doing so.
If the guy is close up, the solution is *probably* not really weapons based. The true solution is *probably* something along the lines of seizing the initiative by moving off the line of force (or soon to be line of force), and doing an unarmed attack such that his OODA loop gets reset. Mess up their plan for you in that spot. Your weapon may never come out...or you may get it out very quickly because you generated the opportunity to do so.
Let's reiterate:
Move
Attack and/or move
Attack and/or move
Attack and/or move
Attack and/or move
...until done
Every serious hit resets his OODA loop.
AMOK! (knife fighting with unarmed combatives) is the art of cruelty. For some reason, we gun people tend to forget that gun fighting is also the art of cruelty. Our psychology tends toward what's comfy and easy for us: "Oh, well, we'll be AWARE of our surroundings and when that fails we'll just go to the gun."
Testing people...does that attitude generate the desired results? I think not.
If you're not serious about being cruel with your gun, because you're concerned about "safety", then you're not concerned about survival. Your mindset is fixed in "no risk" mode versus a winning mode. We're talking about killing another human being in one of the highest risk situations possible (goblin pointing a gun at you)...and you're concerned about safety?
Don't carry a gun because you have no business doing so.
230therapy
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I suspect Erich will keep his carry guns unloaded for all of three seconds. After that, he'll be packing six of 'em with Buffalo Bore ammo.
Erich
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Nah, I handload. I still think they copied my defensive wadcutter load!
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Agreed. It's amazing how many people still misunderstand how deadly a knife really is. That's what the "OMG!!!" part of my post meant. You have to get off the line of attack and go hands on. And it's not going to be nice.
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Empty chamber means all of our revolvers are unloaded anyway..... hehehehehe
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TwoGunsStanding
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FWIW: I think Skeeter Skelton wrote an article about a LE friend that carried his big service revolver with dummy rounds in it, and had his "live" backup weapon stashed under his shirt, but accesible. This was to "thwart" a guy grabbing his gun. Not sure if he was planning on shooting the guy that grabbed the gun, then load the grabbed gun with live rounds (a jury might find shooting a man that had a gun the cop KNEW wouldn't fire a no-no). Also heard of some people leaving a chamber or two empty for the same reason...gave them time to draw a backup, etc if the bad guy tried firing it. To each their own.
230therapy
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Carrying a gun with dummy rounds...now that's really, really weird!
Would you happen to have that article (or at least the magazine and year it was in)?
Would you happen to have that article (or at least the magazine and year it was in)?
That kind of dancing around is fine for boxing but in a self defense situation if you don't have the chance to access a weapon, once you step off the line of attack and make contact/bridge the gap you need to maintain that bridge and beat, throw, tie up your opponent until you either subdue them or create the opportunity to step back, draw, and fire (never accept submission, beat them ino it). The idea of allowing an attacker the opportunity to reset and come at you again or access a weapon of his own when you don't have to is just asking for trouble.
Also, I've been around martial arts for a loooong time. I've taught kempo and trained boxers and kickboxers for almost 20 years and I've never heard the term "OODA loop", what does it stand for?
Not really, under the circumstances. Security holsters weren't as common back then, and cops were required to carry visible guns, hanging right out there for a grab.
I presume that a sap or a stick was ordinarily used to complete the process of dealing with the BG.
I have certainly heard of the practice that 2GS describes, and believe that there were some big-city cops who did that. Good for them!
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