Case hardened frames

[Stophel]

Let me take back some of my first comments about the case hardened frames of the new S&W's.

I have a 21-4 with the casehardened finish. I put a file to it in various places, and the steel is soft enough to file without too much difficulty. Well, Yesterday, I went to finesse an area around the top front of the frame, where it was a bit lumpy. I wanted to file it and smooth and straighten it out....Hard as a freakin' rock. I was stunned. I actually had to get a stone and stone off the area. The case hardened surface is thin, and it is fileable once the hard part is stoned off, but it is there...in spots. This is the only real hard spot I have found on the gun so far. The inside of the sideplate is soft, and the frame side behind the cylinder is "stiff", but still fileable, as is the grip frame. (the gun is going to be blued after I'm done with my modifications).

I don't know just what process is used for the color casehardening. What I THINK they might be doing is just adding enough of the casehardening medium to get colors where they want them, but not worrying about getting a deep "case", quenching, and then perhaps drawing it down...though that would ruin the colors...unless done in a vacuum? This might leave some harder spots here and there where more of the casehardening medium managed to soak into the steel.

I don't know. At any rate, it is SOME form of actual case hardening.

 

[Stophel]

Let me take back some of my first comments about the case hardened frames of the new S&W's.

I have a 21-4 with the casehardened finish. I put a file to it in various places, and the steel is soft enough to file without too much difficulty. Well, Yesterday, I went to finesse an area around the top front of the frame, where it was a bit lumpy. I wanted to file it and smooth and straighten it out....Hard as a freakin' rock. I was stunned. I actually had to get a stone and stone off the area. The case hardened surface is thin, and it is fileable once the hard part is stoned off, but it is there...in spots. This is the only real hard spot I have found on the gun so far. The inside of the sideplate is soft, and the frame side behind the cylinder is "stiff", but still fileable, as is the grip frame. (the gun is going to be blued after I'm done with my modifications).

I don't know just what process is used for the color casehardening. What I THINK they might be doing is just adding enough of the casehardening medium to get colors where they want them, but not worrying about getting a deep "case", quenching, and then perhaps drawing it down...though that would ruin the colors...unless done in a vacuum? This might leave some harder spots here and there where more of the casehardening medium managed to soak into the steel.

I don't know. At any rate, it is SOME form of actual case hardening.

 

[Wyatt Earp]

You claim these "case hardened" frames are soft. You say so because you can file them.

All you have to offer so far are qualitative opinions.

Let me ask you some quantitative questions:

1) Do you know what hardness does S&W specify for its .44 S&W Special N frames?

2) If you don't know what that hardness is supposed to be, how can you say the frames are too soft?

3) Do you think there is a different hardness spec between the "case hardened" frames and the blued or nickeled frames?

4) If your answer to #3 is yes, do you actually think that S&W would make a revolver whose frame is actually softer than identical ones in the same caliber but with different finishes?

5) Do you think that S&W thinks it is acceptable to have random patterns of varying hardness in a structural part of a handgun? I don't.

If you are so obsessed with this, perhaps it is time to put some data on this by having an engineering lab near you check the frame with a hardness tester. Maybe, then, you can contact S&W an tell them they made a mistake?

With no data, we can go round and round all day on this.

 

[Stophel]

Calm down.

To answer your rather belligerent questions:

1. No
2. I NEVER said the frames were "too soft".
3. I would not have thought so, but it may be the case
4. Again, I never said the frames were "too soft"
5. Unless they tested every one, at every point, they'd never know. With case hardening, there is a thin skin of high carbon, hardened steel on the surface. Beneath this surface (presuming a lower carbon steel), the steel is softer and more durable/less brittle.

I'm the one obsessed????? You are the one who is getting rather bellicose...

I'm just making observations from my experience with this particular gun (you can come and look at it if you want...), and was posting my observations, being prompted by a question on this matter some time back. I'm also curious as to just what process is used on these guns. You act as if I'm making a personal attack.

"You claim these 'case hardened' frames are soft. You say so because you can file them"....well, yes. Properly case hardened steel/iron, if not tempered down, is not fileable. Simply put. It is harder than a file, which usually are around a Rockwell hardness of 63, more or less. If steel/iron is casehardened, it can be tempered down to whatever surface hardness is desired, just as with a through-hardening steel. It can be tempered down all the way to dead-soft if desired, or it can be tempered to a rockwell hardness of 54, 42, or whatever. Usually it's not, as the whole point of case hardening is generally to get a super hard wearing surface, but retain a softer, more shock resistant core.

I have merely posted what I have seen on this gun in my hands, and have posited what I think could be the process used to achieve it. I am curious, and if someone knows the actual process used, I'd like to know.

Let me ask you, just what is the spec hardness of a .44 special frame? What exactly is the process used by S&W to case harden their frames? What is the rockwell hardness of the case hardened surface? And further, do you think it is even possible for S&W to make a mistake? (I never said that they did, by the way, I think the gun is fine.)

 

[Calaveras Slim]

Originally posted by Wyatt Earp:
You claim these "case hardened" frames are soft. You say so because you can file them.

All you have to offer so far are qualitative opinions.

Let me ask you some quantitative questions:

1) Do you know what hardness does S&W specify for its .44 S&W Special N frames?

2) If you don't know what that hardness is supposed to be, how can you say the frames are too soft?

3) Do you think there is a different hardness spec between the "case hardened" frames and the blued or nickeled frames?

4) If your answer to #3 is yes, do you actually think that S&W would make a revolver whose frame is actually softer than identical ones in the same caliber but with different finishes?

5) Do you think that S&W thinks it is acceptable to have random patterns of varying hardness in a structural part of a handgun? I don't.

If you are so obsessed with this, perhaps it is time to put some data on this by having an engineering lab near you check the frame with a hardness tester. Maybe, then, you can contact S&W an tell them they made a mistake?

With no data, we can go round and round all day on this.

Wyatt Earp, while I agree with some of what you said, I have to agree that this post is kinda bellicose. I feel you could have made you point in a more kinder, gentler post..

 

[Stophel]

No, I'm not sure he could...

I'm just making observations and I'm curious how it's done.

Not wanting to start any arguments.

 

[s&wchad]

Originally posted by Stophel:
I have a 21-4 with the casehardened finish. I put a file to it in various places, and the steel is soft enough to file without too much difficulty.

Remind me to never, ever loan you one of my guns.

 

[akr]

Hang in there, Stophel!

 

[Stophel]

Originally posted by s&wchad:

Originally posted by Stophel:
I have a 21-4 with the casehardened finish. I put a file to it in various places, and the steel is soft enough to file without too much difficulty.

Remind me to never, ever loan you one of my guns.

This is a project gun. The lock will be removed, hole plugged, slot filled. Front sight base and ejector shroud filed to a better shape, etc. That's why I've been filing on it!

 

[s&wchad]

OK then, but I'm starting with a Mossberg!

 

[Stophel]

I wonder what the rockwell hardness is on that aluminum....

 

[tbury]

Just to throw a left-handed curve ball into the discussion, S&W calls the new 21s "case colored" not case hardened. I do not think there is a difference in the steel used in blued/nickel/case colored in these modern re-makes.

 

[Stophel]

It does not seem to be intended for a hard surface, only for color, but I do think it is done with some variation of an actual case hardening process. I just don't know exactly what.

 

[akr]

Originally posted by s&wchad:
OK then, but I'm starting with a Mossberg!

I'm in love with my Mossberg, and I have 5 Remingtons.

 

[Stophel]

I cut the barrel down on my Mossberg, put a "side saddle" shell holder and made a scary-looking bad guy blaster.

 

[MaineProbation]

I don't see why S%W would case harden a frame. No doubt a forged frame is heat-treated after forging but that does not mean case hardening.

 

[deanodog]

Stophel

Show us a picture of that pretty 21-4

 

[Stophel]

Here it is as I got it:

As you can see, they only worried about getting the colors where it shows on the outside.

 

[Stophel]

Originally posted by keith44spl:
Stophel,
I'm not gonna put my dog in this hunt, but if you will contact me via e-mail I'll shed some light on your questions. I once work as a heat- treater and with case-harden & case colored items. It's all in the charcoal & bone mix.

Su Amigo
Dave

I'll do that as soon as I get home (can't email here at work). I understand case hardening, but I don't understand how they do the colors without appreciably hardening the piece.

 

[ladder13]

I am not wanting to get into the middle of anything, I come here for fun and info.
Having said that....why do you file the metal?
Do you refinish them afterwards, and if so, why go thru the hassle?
Please no wiseguy remarks from anyone, just asking.