Cautions

[Skip Sackett]

I have been reading a lot lately about using this component with this load and the question that always seems to come out of it is: "Will this be safe?"

What I find alarming is this, experienced re-loaders taking that giant step of faith and saying: "Oh, you'll be OK. I've done the same thing for years."

I am not above using old data, the wrong components because of availability, or many other variables that could prove potentially dangerous. What I am above doing though is saying: "Go ahead, you'll be OK." 'cause none of us knows all of the details of the other re-loader's competence.

Even when we were loading "THE LOAD" we always left a caution NOT to do what we were doing but to work your way up. It may seem like semantics for most but when someone asks if exchanging magnum primers or this powder for that, and our response has no hint of a warning, we are doing our hobby a great disservice. Not to mention encouraging possible harm to innocents.

My re-loading brothers and sisters, when someone posts a question about these kinds of things, PLEASE put a caution in your reply to at least work up the load from scratch. Tell them to start over. Tell them to use what little common sense they may have and use every precaution.

A proverbial "go ahead and do it" may turn out to be someone's sure ticket to the emergency room if not the morgue.

Please.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I have been reading a lot lately about using this component with this load and the question that always seems to come out of it is: "Will this be safe?"

What I find alarming is this, experienced re-loaders taking that giant step of faith and saying: "Oh, you'll be OK. I've done the same thing for years."

I am not above using old data, the wrong components because of availability, or many other variables that could prove potentially dangerous. What I am above doing though is saying: "Go ahead, you'll be OK." 'cause none of us knows all of the details of the other re-loader's competence.

Even when we were loading "THE LOAD" we always left a caution NOT to do what we were doing but to work your way up. It may seem like semantics for most but when someone asks if exchanging magnum primers or this powder for that, and our response has no hint of a warning, we are doing our hobby a great disservice. Not to mention encouraging possible harm to innocents.

My re-loading brothers and sisters, when someone posts a question about these kinds of things, PLEASE put a caution in your reply to at least work up the load from scratch. Tell them to start over. Tell them to use what little common sense they may have and use every precaution.

A proverbial "go ahead and do it" may turn out to be someone's sure ticket to the emergency room if not the morgue.

Please.

 

[acl864]

Well said Skip.

 

[socal s&w]

Well said.
You personally have given many great responses to loading questions that pertain to what you are stating, yet always with a word about safety.
There is no such thing as being too safe. However, if anyone takes anything from any non-manufacturer's website without knowing first hand that it is reliable and from a reputable source is asking for trouble.
It takes a little more effort to do it right, some are simply lazy enough not to make that effort. Those are the ones that need the caution.
You have answered several of my loading questions, all have been taken into consideration as they are given, as a suggestion, not necessarily verbatum. Still working within the loading community's perimeters of safety and due diligence.

 

[oromil]

Post should be required reading for all
except the most experienced reloaders..
Oromil.

 

[DougE]

Well said Skip,
I'm certainly no expert when it comes to reloading but if I were to change a component, I'd work back up from the minimum load even if someone told me the switch would be ok with the current load. I would no more walk out into the street without looking because someone said it was ok without looking for myself than I would switch components without starting over from scratch.

 

[Hoptob]

Very well put, Skip. I agree that some of the advice given here is more appropriate for an experienced reloader than for a novice.

Here is what was once said about exercising caution in reloading. This quote refers to 16 gr. 2400 under 146 gr. JHP in 357mag cases. The load is not even considered particularly hot anymore...

Who do you think said that?

Mike

 

[Skip Sackett]

One of three come to mind. Skeeter, Keith or Sharpe.

Which one was it?

 

[Hoptob]

That was fast! Phil Sharpe, Complete Guide to Handloading (1937).

Mike

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I take it you are referring to my post to the man asking about magnum primers vs. standard. You are correct about the warning. I was lax there. But, I'll stand by what I told him. I have apparently stepped into your baliwick, and on your toes. I have been here a while, but I usually don't post in the loading section because when I first came on this site, I read in this section a lot before I ever joined or posted. I noticed who was, or at least seemed to be, the forum experts, and that anyone who posted in contradiction was soon given the brush off.

I do not wish to step on anyones toes, so I'll not post here anymore. There are other sections and forums on this site. I wll go back to them and leave the reloading forum to the well recognized and established men.

Sorry for the intrusion gentlemen.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Originally posted by Gun 4 Fun:
I take it you are referring to my post to the man asking about magnum primers vs. standard. You are correct about the warning. I was lax there. But, I'll stand by what I told him. I have apparently stepped into your baliwick, and on your toes. I have been here a while, but I usually don't post in the loading section because when I first came on this site, I read in this section a lot before I ever joined or posted. I noticed who was, or at least seemed to be, the forum experts, and that anyone who posted in contradiction was soon given the brush off.

I do not wish to step on anyones toes, so I'll not post here anymore. There are other sections and forums on this site. I wll go back to them and leave the reloading forum to the well recognizd and established men.

Sorry for the intrusion gentlemen.

Axe to grind, friend? Chip on your shoulder?

The reference was not only about a post you made but many others have done the same in recent days/months.

There have been no "toes stepped on" as I neither run this forum or threads in it. I simply post things I feel are a help to others. A little guidance here, a little direction there.

As you admitted, you were being lax. Laxity can cause the inexperienced to become experienced in things that are deadly in this hobby. My warning was simply to remind us that we are stewards of this information and need to dispense it with the utmost care.

If you don't have that kind of regard for your fellow re-loader/handloader it is well for you visit other portions of this forum.

Someplace where the attitude doesn't show so much!

 

[Bruce51]

I realize that many new reloaders post questions here who apparently have never even read through a reloading manual. We do have to be very careful that the information we provide always takes that fact into consideration. I'm guilty of posting max loads that I have worked up to with my guns in the past. In the future I will make sure that I advise new and experienced reloaders follow recommended procedures for working up loads. Thanks Skip for the reminder. Bruce

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I have no ax to grind, nor do I have a chip on my shoulder. I stated that I was lax in including a warning to the other gentleman. Why would you even post something that thoughtless? I posted an apology for intruding into what you obviously consider "your" area of the forum.

If you had a problem with something I have posted, or said, then you should have brought it to my attention off forum as the rules state.
Instead, you chose to do it here.

You don't know me from Adam, and yet you have decided that I have too much attitude, no regard for my fellow man, and told me that indeed I should indeed visit other sections of this forum. If you were offended by my apology, then the fault lies with you sir. Perhaps you read my post the way you wanted to, instead of the spirit in which it was intended.

If anyone is showing too much attitude, it is you sir!

 

[Skip Sackett]

A wise man told me once: "Never argue with an idiot, someone standing nearby won't be able to tell which one is which."

I'm not calling you any names, just stating that I don't want to appear to be an idiot.

I will state, as I did in my original post, there have been liberties taken by several, you weren't/aren't the focal point of it. That is unless you want to make yourself so.

As for the "visiting other sections of the forum", that was your idea, I just agreed with you.

And yes, I do have some attitude, it's what makes a man a real man. Knowing when to exhibit it makes one a wise man. Some never learn that portion of manhood. Sad, truly sad.

If I accepted your apology for "intruding" I would give credence to your assumption that this was "my" area of the forum. It's not mine but ours. Those that take a careful reminder of caution for what it is, a reminder. Those that try to use cautions to bring to the fore front items of concern that some may leave out because of being lax.

If there wasn't a history of your attitude I wouldn't have mentioned it here either.

Check these examples of your replies when you are confronted about a perceived wrong done to you.

I fail to see what has got you so upset as to post a statement like the one above. I don't believe anything I have posted will mislead or confuse the OP.

He asked for opinions and advice, and that's what we're giving him.

Are you saying that he should take advice from you, but no one else? Confused

Those two posts are just several days apart and directed at folks that called you into question.

Not the kind of attitude I want to be known by. YMMV!

 

[Beans]

"They never open their mouths without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge." - Thomas Brackett Reed

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

So Skip, it's ok for you to have attitude, since when you show it you're always in the right, but when I simply ask another poster, who, by the way, has made a rude comment that you failed to include in this last post, why he would post something like that when we were trying to answer another man questions and help him out, I am showing attitude. Maybe before you run me down, you should try to get to know me, and my background. No attitude was shown, I just asked a question of someone who is apparently one of your friends, judging from the way you left out his stupid comment.

In fact anyone can go back and see that the first poster clearly did not like someone questioning his post, though in fact it was wrong until he edited it to be in line with what I and others were saying. That is what I am talking about, no one dares question the gurus who hang out in this little corner of the forum.

The post following yours above was exactly what I alluded to earlier. There is a good ol' boy mentallity here. If someone unknown to you all says anything, it's open season. I guarantee you that it wouldn't happen to my face. It's easy to jump on the bandwagon and attack the outsider when it's some annonymous person miles away. If you really had something to say, and feel the need to set me straight, you should do it off forum like you're supposed to. Doing it here is for the benefit of your friends, and not conducive to the forum.

There is no need for a response from you here, I am done with this nonsense. Life's too short to waste it on an argument.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I guarantee you that it wouldn't happen to my face.

I am going to violate my own rule just this one time and look like an idiot.


What are you saying? That I'd be afraid to tell you exactly what I think of you to your face? Not likely bud, not likely. It's easy to imply a threat over the internet.

No one is a "guru" except for those that bring up something you have said or left out as in the case of the original subject of discussion.

Dude, you have issues. I'm sorry you live in Michigan and are among the unemployed. I know it's bad up there, I'm just 12 miles from the fence, the one that keeps you there and me here!

(That goes back to an old joke about Indiana's new zoo. They put a fence around Michigan. Ya had to be there!)

OKFC and I aren't "friends" as you stated. You wouldn't know that. We have some very differing opinions on several subjects. Like how to apply knowledge in a meaningful way to new re-loaders. He's brash and rough and I only get that way if someone is screaming for it, but we work together to keep folks informed.

There is room for others too, even you. I had a guy tell me something once that has stuck with me since. I had just switched jobs and was doing my best to "make a place" for me in that department. He said: "You can keep using your elbows to make your spot or allow others to move out of the way, your choice."

Take some advice, quit using your elbows.

 

[Paul5388]

Skip,

Is it possible that you have escalated this to much more than it should have been? Maybe something that should have been handled with Private Messages?

Clear, concise statements may be the easiest way to avoid some confrontations. In this case, it may have taken the form of "Hey y'all, do you think it might be better for us to include a disclaimer or word of caution with our loading data/advice, especially for the benefit of the newcomers?" That would have been sufficient to serve as a reminder for all of us and it wouldn't have opened the door for anyone to take it personally.

Heb 12:14 "Follow peace with all men,"

 

[Skip Sackett]

Paul,
You know how much I respect you. If I had directed this at someone then, yes, that would have been a better way to have handled it. Originally that was not the intent. When someone comes up and starts acting like I singled them out when I didn't then there is no other course of action than to debunk it.

Sure it escalated when it had to be brought to other's attention that I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular, it was just a friendly reminder. Then there were many allegations made that had to be refuted, they had to be. I did that in the kindest, most professional way possible. I wasn't rude or crude. Forceful and forthright, yes. You see, I have no problem with confronting an issue. If things get a little heated, so be it. I can take the heat, so to speak.

The intent of the original post was to remind everyone to be careful making comments without a caution to safety. When that can't be done because someone gets offended, it's not the problem of the one making the caution, it's the one that got offended that has the problem.

How could so many posters take the original post one way then have one guy take it another and stir up this pot of nonsense?

Thank you for the reminder from The Word. I'll leave you with one too on the same subject.

Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men.

Sometimes, it's not possible to be peaceful. Just like when Paul confronted Peter when he was wrong, it isn't going to look very peaceful. The trouble is though, there is no other way to maintain peace without some confrontation.

As far as I'm concerned this matter is settled. I gave a kindly reminder to one and all. Don't try to read more into it nor take anything away from it.

Thanks!

 

[OKFC05]

OKFC and I aren't "friends" as you stated. You wouldn't know that. We have some very differing opinions on several subjects. Like how to apply knowledge in a meaningful way to new re-loaders. He's brash and rough and I only get that way if someone is screaming for it, but we work together to keep folks informed.

Well, just for the record, I wouldn't know you if you came to my door--never met.

And I cetainly don't mind being reminded to give proper cautions or to be more gentle with beginners. The sum of information and thought from all of us is usually more than any one of us can manage, and that's what it's all about-- helping each other out.

 

[Hoptob]

This is one of those bizzare threads that starts well and then unexpectedly deteriorates. Pity.

I didn't read in Skip's OP anything targeting Gun4Fun or anyone else in particular. There was nothing about turf protection there either. Just a general -- and fair -- warning to keep reader's level in mind. Reasonable thing to do even if no explosives were involved.

Folks, it's easy to misread Internet post and take it personally when it was never meant that way. Perhaps we all should just cool down a bit here. Handloading is a great hobby. It's good to have a friendly place where you can share your experiences with a fellow man, get advice or just show off a bit. Let's keep it this way.

Mike

 

[Sgt Preston]

Sgt Preston here. Meanwhile back on the "real" topic....I have gathered load information from a variety of both good & bad sources over the years. The first thing I do is to compare a ??posted load?? to my reloading text books. Does the load fall near the mid range of well established loads. If the new load is within the written guide lines, I'll give it a try. Reloading = bombmaking where the bomb is placed 12" in front to your face. Reloading should not be taken lightly. We all need to be PERSONALLY responsible to verify all "given" loads & for our own safety. Failure to verify can lead to trips to the hospital and or damaged guns. Skip's point about using "close enough" components are right on the money. Sgt Preston USMC LLA

 

[rewster]

Originally posted by Sgt Preston:
Sgt Preston here. Meanwhile back on the "real" topic....I have gathered load information from a variety of both good & bad sources over the years. The first thing I do is to compare a ??posted load?? to my reloading text books. Does the load fall near the mid range of well established loads. If the new load is within the written guide lines, I'll give it a try. Reloading = bombmaking where the bomb is placed 12" in front to your face. Reloading should not be taken lightly. We all need to be PERSONALLY responsible to verify all "given" loads & for our own safety. Failure to verify can lead to trips to the hospital and or damaged guns. Skip's point about using "close enough" components are right on the money. Sgt Preston USMC LLA

+1

 

[Skip Sackett]

Well, just for the record, I wouldn't know you if you came to my door--never met.

And I cetainly don't mind being reminded to give proper cautions or to be more gentle with beginners. The sum of information and thought from all of us is usually more than any one of us can manage, and that's what it's all about-- helping each other out.

Common goals have made for strange "bed-fellows" in the past, nothing new there. OKFC, you are a class act bud!

Sarge,
You are awesome too! Friend!

 

[NKJ nut]

Skip didn't escalate it, the other guy did when he wanted to take something oh so personal. You would think Skip had banged him on the nose with his fist or something. Skip put up a friendly reminder that all of us should take to heart. I know I will. You see I happen to be one of those who has said "go ahead and do it", more than once. I shouldn't do that. I was wrong. I felt in each instance it would be OK to proceed. BUT, square one is the place to start. That IS the safe way. It does protect us from bodily injury or death and it does protect valuable guns from being destroyed. Sometimes we are not as cautious as we should be. Skip reminded ALL of us of that fact. I ( along with most of the rest of you) didn't take it that Skip was calling me (us) a novice and not to be giving advice on "his" forum. I (we) took it as a friendly reminder for us to use caution in giving advice.

Gun 4 Fun you were way too quick to take offense. If you want to be one of those "well recognized and established men" as you call it; you have chosen a poor way of doing it. Whining and pouting is a poor way to gain respect. Jumping to conclusions and inferring wrong doing by another member wont get it for you either. Work to help other people on the forum like Skip does. Do that and you most certainly will have as good a name here as he does.

 

[n4zov]

This is one of those bizzare threads that starts well and then unexpectedly deteriorates. Pity.

+1

 

[NKJ nut]

Originally posted by n4zov:

This is one of those bizzare threads that starts well and then unexpectedly deteriorates. Pity.

+1

I don't think it is particularly bizarre, though I do agree that it did go down hill quick. That was not the fault of the OP. Hopefully the friendly reminder that was put up is what people will remember from this thread. If that is the case this thread will have accomplished its purpose.

 

[walnutred]

Dang, and I thought ol' Smith was directing his comments at me. I feel somehow left out now that I see he was really talking about someone else

 

[Paul5388]

I was loading some shot shells last night in 12 gauge. If they happened to be for a S&W, would/could I be at liberty to share that information with the rest of the forum?

With the direction this thread has progressed to, there isn't any way that would happen, since there isn't any data for the load and there isn't any data for the payload either.

What kind of caveat would I need, as a caution, if I did post that information? Something like, "I made this load up from related data for an entirely different projectile, but it's mostly my own creation. Use it if you dare."

If all that is presented comes solely from the published manuals, there is absolutely no need for any discussion except, "Read page XXX of the XYZ manual". Of course, the manual would also need to have been published in the very recent past to be acceptable.

So, I won't be telling you what I concocted to deal with this problem in my front yard.

 

[Erich]

I can't believe you shot a tied-up prisoner!