CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[Protected One]

This situation : police 1

and this situation : police 2

Just kidding...

Well, here's the serious answer to your question:

I don't think anybody is saying C3 is better. That doesn't make sense.

The reason this thread became controversial and attracted the huge amount of responses is because some people have no flexibility to accept the following...

" C3 also is an acceptable method of carry for a CCW even though it may not be as effective as C1 under certain situations. "

It is as simple as that...

I prefer C1.
But I am not arrogant to tell fellow CCW out there who prefer C3, that they should leave their guns at home or they shouldn't own a gun at all...
Now that would be absurd!

First let me say that I would never tell someone else how to carry, or suggest they leave their gun at home. Since my protection isn't based on how THEY carry, I really don't care. I carry C1...only.
Several people have said " C3 also is an acceptable method of carry for a CCW even though it may not be as effective as C1 under certain situations. " BUT no one has specified what such a situation would be. For a civilian, I cannot think of a single situation where C3 would be acceptable.

 

[jlrhiner]

My opinion is that some folks wind up here as the result of Internet searches or just read different threads for fun. Once in awhile, we get opinions of pseudo-experts who make a "just as good"statement about carrying, firearms or their defensive use.

If we allow those statements to stand unchallenged, someone who is not a "gun" person might get themselves hurt listening to the "expert" whose official stance is based on a desire to be unique, argumentative and offers him a chance to educate the UN-washed masses with his superior knowledge.

For this thread, the question was "do you keep one in the pipe?" for your CCW. Not what the Israelies do, the army does, or any archaic entity. We all know, or at least those of us that are former military, that if we're in charge of a thousand young warfighters we will do whatever necessary to minimize AD's and that will result in an unloaded weapon while in an area of security. THAT DOESN'T APPLY TO CIVILIAN CCW.

If you carry a concealed weapon for your personal defense, train with it until you are comfortable enough with it to carry it correctly. If you distrust it or yourself, get rid of it and buy a revolver.

Many of our members here take the attitude that they would never tell another that they're wrong in this. I'm going to.

CARRYING A PERSONAL DEFENSIVE HANDGUN WITH AN EMPTY CHAMBER COULD GET YOU KILLED.

I can come up with NO situation where it is "better" to carry in C3. please correct me.

 

[venomballistics]

I've asked this before, but never received an answer. What is a situation where C3 is better?

somewhere at the end of day with young and curious kids and some strenuous activities where the safety of C3 becomes a little more important that the ready status.
but thats it .. a few odd exceptions.
any other time, which is most of the time, C1 is equal or better

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

" C3 also is an acceptable method of carry for a CCW even though it may not be as effective as C1 under certain situations. "

It is as simple as that...

Problem I have with such a simple statement is that the underlying conditions used to rationalize C3 carry are often unacceptable to begin with. Unsafe guns, unsafe equipment, unsafe handling... There's duct tape thinking that goes into C3 carry that I find unacceptable, and that's before any discussion of self defense advantages/disadvantages of C1 vs C3.

Example: Carrying a Glock with no holster or a holster that does not cover the trigger guard is something I find unacceptable as a standard method of carry. C3 is an unacceptable remedy. A proper holster that covers the trigger guard is the only acceptable remedy as far as I am concerned.

 

[venomballistics]

Problem I have with such a simple statement is that the underlying conditions used to rationalize C3 carry are often unacceptable to begin with. Unsafe guns, unsafe equipment, unsafe handling... There's duct tape thinking that goes into C3 carry that I find unacceptable, and that's before any discussion of self defense advantages/disadvantages of C1 vs C3.

Example: Carrying a Glock with no holster or a holster that does not cover the trigger guard is something I find unacceptable as a standard method of carry. C3 is an unacceptable remedy. A proper holster that covers the trigger guard is the only acceptable remedy as far as I am concerned.

I'd agree with the duct tape thinking to a great degree and I tend to dismiss most of it for all the same reasons.
The person should just find a better way to address these issues .. its just being responsible.

I stated back a few feet about the occasional exception where C3 might be favored.
So I dug up an old chunk of news.
Detroit cop off-duty accidentally shoots woman at a party | GlobalPost
If we take his word for it. this would have been one of the rare exceptions where C3 would have been favored.
lots of activity, bodily contact, and plenty of random strange happenings that just cannot be accounted for.

thats the only time I can make a supporting argument for C3 carry .... in the oddball exceptions.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

I'd agree with the duct tape thinking to a great degree and I tend to dismiss most of it for all the same reasons.
The person should just find a better way to address these issues .. its just being responsible.

I stated back a few feet about the occasional exception where C3 might be favored.
So I dug up an old chunk of news.
Detroit cop off-duty accidentally shoots woman at a party | GlobalPost
If we take his word for it. this would have been one of the rare exceptions where C3 would have been favored.
lots of activity, bodily contact, and plenty of random strange happenings that just cannot be accounted for.

thats the only time I can make a supporting argument for C3 carry .... in the oddball exceptions.

Right. Now if someone wants to make the choice to carry C3 because they believe an asteroid strike might cause an AD... well... I would probably tell him that's a fine idea and suggest that he might consider an empty mag too.

 

[venomballistics]

Right. Now if someone wants to make the choice to carry C3 due to believing that an asteroid strike might fire their gun... well... I would probably tell them that's a fine idea... and they might consider an empty mag too.

yeah he probably could have done that 100 times without incident .... must have lost count by 101
Some engage in activities where transitioning between C1 and C3 might not be a bad idea though ... off road racers where man and machine beat the ever loving snot out of each other to see who can fall into a battered and broken heap on the backside of a finish line first ... that might be an even better exception.
its a series of high speed collisions where I think I'd clear the chamber till I turned the vehicle back over to the mechanics to refix everything I rebroke

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I carry a J frame and yes I have one in the pipe. Gun safety starts between your ears!
I have seen 2 Ruger 357s which shot off their shooters' legs. Both shooters were practicing quick draws and shot themselves in the leg. Both times the bullet penetrated down the leg and required Amputation.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

I carry a J frame and yes I have one in the pipe. Gun safety starts between your ears!
I have seen 2 Ruger 357s which shot off their shooters' legs. Both shooters were practicing quick draws and shot themselves in the leg. Both times the bullet penetrated down the leg and required Amputation.

I haven't seen my first example of that yet, despite the fact that I have been associating with various types of gun nuts for years. Since you've seen two, do you think that there is any chance that you are hanging out with a strange crowd? If so, any need to change that?

 

[Capt.Jim]

Right. Now if someone wants to make the choice to carry C3 because they believe an asteroid strike might cause an AD... well... I would probably tell him that's a fine idea and suggest that he might consider an empty mag too.

Quotes like this one causing this thread turning to a thread where "dead horse beating" is continued no end to come...

 

[Rastoff]

I carry a J frame and yes I have one in the pipe. Gun safety starts between your ears!
I have seen 2 Ruger 357s which shot off their shooters' legs. Both shooters were practicing quick draws and shot themselves in the leg. Both times the bullet penetrated down the leg and required Amputation.

This is an example of poor gun handling and has nothing to do with carrying in C3.

 

[THE PILGRIM]

I haven't seen my first example of that yet, despite the fact that I have been associating with various types of gun nuts for years. Since you've seen two, do you think that there is any chance that you are hanging out with a strange crowd? If so, any need to change that?

I did't hang out with the quick draw shooters, I only saw the Rugers. They were owned by two different buddies of mine in 2 different states about 5 years apart. They had bought the Rugers from the quick draw shooters.

 

[Harrison]

Sean Linnane: GLOCK ACCIDENTAL DISCHARGE

That was not an accidental discharge. It was a negligent discharge due to an obviously unsafe holster.

 

[Yiogo]

Please

I carry my J frame (637-2) with 5 in the pipe but I'll stop doing that if y'all promise to stop showing the picture of that guy with a bullet in his butt!! Yiogo

 

[bluegrassarms]

...
The truth is there have probably been more there in the last year, than on Coast Guard vessels since the days of the "Revenue Cutter Service".

When one has a ridiculous premise, one must inevitably resort to ridiculous "arguments" to support it...

Some of them got pretty ridiculous. lol.

drolen addressed the question where he did not, that in the Marines and in country their C1/C3 choice depended on the situation at hand. They were C3 on base but C1 when off base in Iraq.

This makes perfect sense to me. C3 reduces the chances of a ND but reduces readiness. it's appropriate where you know you will most likely have enough warning to have time to chamber the weapon. It's unlikely for the base to be attacked in a way where your chambered sidearm will be a defense (can't shoot down mortar rounds), and if it is you will likely have the extra time to chamber the weapon and not lose any effectiveness (a car busting through a gate may be an example, I don't pretend to know the specific security risks on an Iraq base).

But the analogous situation is when they are carrying C1 off base and the reason is the same as C1 carry for civilians: b/c you don't know the risk level at any given moment. When the extra time and logistics involved in C3 may very well matter, they carry C1.

FWIW I won't tell anyone how to carry or what to carry. What works for them is what works for them. But that doesn't mean we should accept failed analogies about how a few highly trained people carrying in different situations in different holsters with different encumbrances and treat levels can help a person choose between C1 and C3 carry. Let's keep it accurate and objective and then people who may peruse threads like this on the net can get the best info possible and make an informed choice.

I do still say if you are uncomfortable with C1 look first at different gun options before going straight to C3. Revolvers or DAOs with long trigger pulls are an option, along with guns with a grip safety.

 

[bluegrassarms]

This is an example of poor gun handling and has nothing to do with carrying in C3.

I will go so far as to say that C3 can offset the mistake of drawing a gun with the finger on the trigger, but if these guys really managed that trick with a SP101 their mishandling was so egregious I don't know if anything would help them. To pull the trigger all the way through on a SP101 by accident takes a whole lot of effort and stupid.

C3 is IMO a failsafe for other mistakes, which may or may not be OK depending on the mistake you're trying to failsafe. the first thing to do is try to eliminate the first mistake, and sometimes that can be something structural like wearing a proper holster that protects the trigger correctly. For others like putting a finger on the trigger maybe it's OK, hey mistakes happen, but it should never excuse the first mistake and I really don't see ever using it as a way to address fundamental equipment problems like a gun that is unsafe to carry C1 or a poor holster, at least not in a carry situation.

You can get an inexpensive gun that is safe to carry C1, and get a cheap but well fitting holster. If you're going C3 to address those things, change those things first IMO.

If you're shooting your leg off pulling a 10 lb trigger on a SP101 all the way to discharge when you draw, you may not need to carry, or have guns. You get a 10lb DA when you want to make sure you don't do that kind of thing.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

drolen addressed the question where he did not, that in the Marines and in country their C1/C3 choice depended on the situation at hand. They were C3 on base but C1 when off base in Iraq.

This makes perfect sense to me. C3 reduces the chances of a ND but reduces readiness. it's appropriate where you know you will most likely have enough warning to have time to chamber the weapon.

Sounds to me like asking for an accident - when you leave the base, you chamber a round, when you come back, you draw your weapon and remove the round from the chamber. Way too much gunhandling.

When I was in the Navy, one frequently heard such things as "There's a right way, a wrong way, and the Navy way." Does one hear such things in the Army?

 

[Capt.Jim]

This is an example of poor gun handling and has nothing to do with carrying in C3.

IMHO, this is an example that humans do mistakes and has everything to do why some people prefer carrying C3.
Again, we're all human.
We all use the safety between our ears but still manage to cause millions and millions of accidents.
I don't mean with guns alone but every type of accident.
Just because people carrying a loaded gun, they don't suddenly turn into accident-free super-humans.
Like in every other phase of their lives they try max to their ability not to involve in an accident by using the safety between their ears.

Also C3 method is not a FREE PASS to be careless with the gun for the followers of that method. Every C3 people I've met in my lifetime were overly cautious towards handling their guns rather than being less cautious.

What scares me most is, not the overly cautious C3 people but those overly confident "I know all the tips and tricks about gun handling and I do no wrong, ever" crowd.

My commander, a colonel was nearly killing me from 4-5 ft away while he is telling me how some stupid people make mistakes with their gun and so and so...
Then BANG!
He missed me with his Colt .45 probably by 2ft.... He was a battlefield experienced, highly respected weapons, tactics and special ops expert...
Still, he was not immune from making a mistake...
I never forgot the expression on his face when he realized what just happened.
Disbelief and shock was nothing next to the sadness he felt.
He was so distraught because between of all the people "He" did that stupid mistake.
So, I can't blame if some civilians think that it could happen to them and wanna be extra cautious.
It's their choice and I respect that!

 

[bluegrassarms]

Sounds to me like asking for an accident - when you leave the base, you chamber a round, when you come back, you draw your weapon and remove the round from the chamber. Way too much gunhandling.

When I was in the Navy, one frequently heard such things as "There's a right way, a wrong way, and the Navy way." Does one hear such things in the Army?

Fair point. He didn't speak to the procedures they use in transition, I'd be curious to know them.

Still, it doesn't change the overall analogy of C1/C3 for carry b/c in carry you don't go "on base" and thus change the condition of the weapon. You could when you come home at night but while I'd tend to agree with you that it's a chance for a mistake I see it as a separate question from whether to carry C1/C3 when out of the home.

 

[Rastoff]

To pull the trigger all the way through on a SP101 by accident takes a whole lot of effort and stupid.

Oh yeah, I agree with that, but was it an SP101? Ruger makes many models of .357. Most are SAA type guns. When he said "quick draw" I immediately went to cowboy action shooting. So, I was thinking of trying to draw, cock and shoot super fast. That is the most likely place for that type of discharge.

So, I don't think it would have happened if it were a DA gun.

IMHO, this is an example that humans do mistakes and has everything to do why some people prefer carrying C3.

Yes, humans make mistakes. But, the references ND was not on a C3. You can carry a revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer, but it's completely different than an auto. An empty chamber under the hammer on a revolver is a non-issue. It makes no difference to the operation of the gun.