CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[ChattanoogaPhil]

My commander, a colonel was nearly killing me from 4-5 ft away while he is telling me how some stupid people make mistakes with their gun and so and so...
Then BANG!
He missed me with his Colt .45 probably by 2ft.... He was a battlefield experienced, highly respected weapons, tactics and special ops expert...

How did that happen?

Since we're talking about carry... When I carry, my gun stays in the holster, period. It doesn't get yanked out of the holster and waved around for story time or shown and tell.

Basic safety doesn't require expert skills, it requires simple disciplines. A lot of jackwagons get themselves in trouble playing with their gun while carrying. The DEA agent in the earlier posted vid is a perfect example. That wasn't a mistake, that was a purposeful lack of discipline for keeping his carry gun holstered.

True, humans are not perfect. However, there will never be a time when I yank my carry gun out of it's holster to play show and tell. 100%. That doesn't make me perfect or superhuman, it's just simple discipline.

 

[Capt.Jim]

How did that happen?

It happened at the gun range... He emptied his first magazine, then he inserted his second mag, loaded one in the chamber and turned towards me to tell me to watch the other guys in our squadron closely because most ADs happen at handgun qualifications because some stupid guys.........

Before he finished the sentence BANG!

I froze and find myself looking at his gun's smoking barrel for a second.
He canceled his shooting immediately, called the range officer, surrendered his gun to him and he went back to his office...
He was a 0 tolerance guy when it comes to gun safety rules.
He was an honorable and fair officer and he applied all his rules to himself too.
As he put it, he was nearly killing a fellow officer.
I guess it wasn't my time!

 

[bluegrassarms]

Oh yeah, I agree with that, but was it an SP101? Ruger makes many models of .357. Most are SAA type guns. When he said "quick draw" I immediately went to cowboy action shooting. So, I was thinking of trying to draw, cock and shoot super fast. That is the most likely place for that type of discharge.

So, I don't think it would have happened if it were a DA gun.

Guess I had the 101 on my brain, not sure why I read it that way. It only says "357" and you're right of course Ruger makes several. Have at least 3 of them in the safe right now in fact, plus the 101.

I agree it must have been a Blackhawk et al trying to action shoot, and if so it definitely isn't applicable to the C3 question. That's just guys trying to be Wyatt Earp who are more Wyatt from the Weird Science movie.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

Also C3 method is not a FREE PASS to be careless with the gun for the followers of that method. Every C3 people I've met in my lifetime were overly cautious towards handling their guns rather than being less cautious.

As the DEA agent pulled his carry gun from the holster he announced it was "an unloaded gun". I'm guessing it was at the time C3, but then subsequently chambered a round after inspecting to ensure a round was not in the chamber, and then proceeded to shoot himself. In any event.... the question is.... If he had thought there was one in the pipe to begin with, would he have ever pulled it out of the holster in the middle of a classroom full of children? We'll never know, but seeing as how he was purposefully quite clear about the gun being unloaded as he pulled it out of the holster, my guess is that he would have left it holstered if he thought the gun had one in the pipe. I mean... I just don't see anyone (even that idiot) announcing "I'm pulling out a loaded gun" in the middle of a classroom full of kids.

People do things with unloaded guns (or what they think are unloaded) that they would not ordinarily do with loaded guns. I'm not so sure that some of that doesn't trickle down to C3 carry mentality.

 

[venomballistics]

As the DEA agent pulled his carry gun from the holster he announced it was "an unloaded gun". ....

People do things with unloaded guns (or what they think are unloaded) that they would not ordinarily do with loaded guns. I'm not so sure that some of that doesn't trickle down to C3 carry mentality.

quite true .. some folks become downright brazen in a sense of false security.
Just look at the conduct of some people here on the web, from the safety of their keyboards.
Arguments and actions they wouldn't try to your face

 

[Capt.Jim]

quite true .. some folks become downright brazen in a sense of false security.
Just look at the conduct of some people here on the web, from the safety of their keyboards.
Arguments and actions they wouldn't try to your face

I agree, we also see the same macho attitude on some posts who drive the arguments to no end by saying stuff like since they carry C1 nothing will ever shook them, at first chance they will draw in a lightning speed and blow the BG away...
Well it is very easy to be a gunslinger behind the safety of a keyboard. Real life is not a PS3 game!

 

[Capt.Jim]

As the DEA agent pulled his carry gun from the holster he announced it was "an unloaded gun". I'm guessing it was at the time C3, but then subsequently chambered a round after inspecting to ensure a round was not in the chamber, and then proceeded to shoot himself. In any event.... the question is.... If he had thought there was one in the pipe to begin with, would he have ever pulled it out of the holster in the middle of a classroom full of children? We'll never know, but seeing as how he was purposefully quite clear about the gun being unloaded as he pulled it out of the holster, my guess is that he would have left it holstered if he thought the gun had one in the pipe. I mean... I just don't see anyone (even that idiot) announcing "I'm pulling out a loaded gun" in the middle of a classroom full of kids.

People do things with unloaded guns (or what they think are unloaded) that they would not ordinarily do with loaded guns. I'm not so sure that some of that doesn't trickle down to C3 carry mentality.

So what is your conclusion?
Blame C3 mentality changing this police officer's attitude towards his gun?
Between all of the people doesn't a person like him has to know to treat every gun as if it is loaded...?
Especially inside a classroom filled with children?

What is your explanation for a DEA agent not knowing if you rack the slide on a Glock with a full magazine attached, it will become a loaded gun...
That is the most dreadful action every C3 person knows and leave it to the last second before squeezing the trigger to shoot something or someone...

What is your explanation for gun to go off ?
After all it is a modern gun like people mention here a lot and it was not supposed to go BANG on it's own...

And if it didn't why the DEA agent's finger was on the trigger?
If it was, why he squeezed the trigger ?

Is, squeezing the trigger while holstering a condition for C3?


Like every discussion you can beat to death from both sides of the point...

Who knows, you may be right, may be I am right or may be we are both wrong!

 

[venomballistics]

I agree, we also see the same macho attitude on some posts who drive the arguments to no end by saying stuff like since they carry C1 nothing will ever shook them, at first chance they will draw in a lightning speed and blow the BG away...
Well it is very easy to be a gunslinger behind the safety of a keyboard. Real life is not a PS3 game!

the bulk of my argument for C1 revolves around the fact that the BG's gun must be assumed to be C0 and the effects of stress and possible injury makes it necessary to eliminate failure points.
C1 makes one a good bit more equal, not to be confused with superior.
honestly, I find far more superior type mindset on youtube and a few other forums than I do here. Its often difficult to avoid some of that essence in these discussions as much of what they have to say actually fits reality after ya scrape off the excess testosterone.
I think most here have done fairly well, all things considered. This thread has been a heck of a ride

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

So what is your conclusion?
Blame C3 mentality changing this police officer's attitude towards his gun?

That the gun was unloaded, yes. Do you think the agent would have been just as likely to unholster a loaded gun and say: "I'm pulling out a loaded gun and am now going to wave it around the classroom". I don't.

What is your explanation for a DEA agent not knowing if you rack the slide on a Glock with a full magazine attached, it will become a loaded gun...

Who says he didn't know how his Glock operated? My guess is that he had a brain fart. Brain fart could not have occurred had he kept the unloaded gun in his holster. And why did he unholster the unloaded gun? Well for starters he obviously didn't have the same discipline as I do about keeping a carry gun in the holster, but for him I think the overriding factor was because he knew the gun didn't have a round in the pipe as he announced to the classroom that it was unloaded as he unholstered it.

What I am saying is that an unloaded carry gun can be an all too easy temptation to do something that a person might not otherwise do with a gun they thought was loaded. I believe the video is an example of that.

The rest of your questiuons are good ones, but all come around the the same thing above.

Who knows, you may be right, may be I am right or may be we are both wrong!

Right. This isn't a contest, it's a discussion. We should all remember that.

ps. You're wrong.

quite true .. some folks become downright brazen in a sense of false security.

And in the case of gun carry it can lead to lazy thinking and discipline. That's not to say that folks who carry C3 are lazy thinkers or lack discipline. It's just a possible pitfall that should be recognized.

 

[blujax01]

...
I can come up with NO situation where it is "better" to carry in C3. please correct me.

Simply this:

If the gunner isn't comfortable carrying otherwise, then it is better for that gunner to carry C3.

 

[ChattanoogaPhil]

If the gunner isn't comfortable carrying otherwise.

There's a heck of a lot of truth there. For most folks the only thing a carry gun will provide during their entire life is peace of mind.

 

[drolen]

In Iraq, and all military bases now I suppose, there are clearing barrels set up just inside the wire. You come in the gate, dismount, put your muzzle in the barrel and unload/clear. This ensures your weapon is clear and if there is a AD/NG the round goes into the sand filled 55 gallon drum. Pretty safe. For anyone who says there is no such thing as an accidental discharge I invite you to drive through Iraq for a few days in 100+ degree heat waiting to get hit with an IED and not getting enough sleep. That kind of stress and deprivation can leave anyone with an AD regardless of how well you think you're trained. You just get worn out and your brain starts skipping beats or something.

For C1 vs C3, I've only seen folks here talk about why C1 is better and how there are training methods to overcome the resistance/fear of C1. What if a person just chooses C3 and does not ask for you opinion? No real reason, just their choice. There is nothing wrong with that.

What do you say to the person that would tell you they carry C3 just because they choose to carry C3? My safety, my gun, my choice, get off my case?

 

[bluegrassarms]

What do you say to the person that would tell you they carry C3 just because they choose to carry C3? My safety, my gun, my choice, get off my case?

100% their choice. There is no one "right" way to stand or grip, just unsafe (wrong) ways and the right way for you. Same for C3 IMO.

My only caveat is that I want the person to have accurate info and assumptions. If someone has told them a gun can go off if dropped and chambered they need to be educated on which guns may be unsafe to carry C1 and which ones are mathematically all but completely safe to carry C1. they need to know about what causes NDs in C1, like a holster exposing a trigger, and not just think "it's going to go off".

it's their choice in the end, but I guess I do feel as a ccdw instructor an obligation to make sure they are making an informed choice. Not my opinions or even the opinions of experts, just the facts of how guns work and don't work. If they know that and choose C3 then power to them and I'll defend their choice as the best one for them and their right to make it.

that's true of those choosing C1 carry even more IMO. If you carry C1 you REALLY need to know the importance of protecting the trigger, the risks of trying to quick draw in that situation, etc. As long as you understand both the costs and benefits, risk and rewards as objectively as they can be given, and choose C1, that's fine.

As long as they aren't choosing based on what some mall ninja or youtube warrior told them and are listening to sound facts, I'll back their choice b/c it's their choice and probably is in fact what will work best for them b/c they know their situation better than others.

 

[Capt.Jim]

Right. This isn't a contest, it's a discussion. We should all remember that.

ps. You're wrong.

Haha, won't be the first time!

 

[Rastoff]

What do you say to the person that would tell you they carry C3 just because they choose to carry C3? My safety, my gun, my choice, get off my case?

Maybe you've just missed my posts.

It has always been my position that you should carry how you want. Just don't do it based on myth. Be knowledgeable of what you're doing. If you understand that C3 is slower and choose to carry that way, I have no issue with it.

It's when people tell me that they carry that way because it's faster that I'm going to call you on the carpet.

 

[ibewbull]

It depends.

One of my CCW shooting buddies (mag-fed-semi-auto) tells me he doesn't carry a round in the chamber. He uses a crotch holster, guess he's nervous he might have a negligent discharge. Ouch!

He says stuff like: "I've been carrying for years, I will always have time to get one in the pipe."

I say: what if you are wounded and can't use two hands? He starts showing me how he can chamber by holding the semi-auto up against his levi's and pushing on the slide.

Anyone else feel like this guy?

Well first off I read the OP quoted above.
I did not read all the replies.
Back when I was very limited in funds I had some older or not so great autos. Not bad as collectors but not modern carry guns. Like the 1910 FN in .380. Nice but it is striker fired. This combined with a minute safety made me rethink condition one.
Now if carrying a Glock or 1911 It is condition one only. I may add in a proper holster. I prefer the Simply Rugged or Milt Sparks.
If I were to crotch carry I think it would be a SW 642 or if an auto an LCP. I doubt I will be packing in this mode. If I were in a different business such as DEA it could be different. But for now the IWB hides the piece fine and it is still accessible.
I believe the crotch carry would be about the slowest presentation mode of carry I could think of. So empty should just add a couple of seconds to the other 15 or so. A bit of sarcasm to make someone smile.
All in all I would say go wheel gun if you do not trust the semi auto or its design.

 

[ibewbull]

USN 1972-1976

I spent seven years in the MP Corps and two years in Iraq. Carry status was predicated on the threat. I can tell you that the entire time I was dealing with road duty, which admittedly was only two years, the rule on my CONUS base was empty chamber for all police, both military and DA civilian police.

I can also tell you that the two years I spent in Iraq was the same. Empty chambers while on base, full chambers while off our base in Iraq.

Why did we do that? Once again, the carry status was predicated on the threat.

Debate your opinion of what we did all you like, it's your opinion. However, keep in mind that I was with a group of well informed people that was much larger than the groups that most of you surround yourselves with (except all you LE types) and we made informed decisions based on quantifiable risks. Not once do I remember our decision costing anyone their life. Not once.

If we were carrying a weapon on the ship we had 2 five rounds each loaded mags in a pouch. The 1911 was not condition 3 it had no mag in it at all.
In the one incident where i did not comply the USS "FORREST FIRE" Had another fire on board to my recollection. We on DDG-4 were on alert. A supposed espionage to day called a terrorist alert. Well I had seven in the mag and one in the pipe that time. Plus there would have been absolutely no halt and warning shot by me at that time.
My next incident was on duty with no back up or anyone for this matter available to assist me. I was guarding the mothball fleet in Virginia. The only one on base with no gate guard. We expected 4th of july demonstrations or protest.
While I had my duce and a half clip board and 90 degree flash light to take care of business plus a land line phone.
On seeing someone sneaking about i immediately got to my personal vehicle to retrieve my Walther P-38. It was fully loaded. I never used it but was glad to have it on hand. The rules are sometimes just a hindrance.
My moad of carry before I was 21 on my .36 High Standard Griswold and Gunnison was hammer down between chambers on the safety pin. Later i went to my first center fire handgun a S&W 28 four inch.
Just some operator experiences I have encountered over the years. We all have our own reasons for what we do. The choices we make can have far reaching effects. Think before you choose what or how to carry. Practice and be informed.

 

[Protected One]

What do you say to the person that would tell you they carry C3 just because they choose to carry C3? My safety, my gun, my choice, get off my case?

I'd say the same thing I would to a person who tells me that they open carry, and in a holster with no retention strap because they choose to ... not a word.

 

[RalphMP9FS]

Excellent thread!! I'm a new guy on the block (ex military from the early 70's), and I haven't handled a weapon in 25 years. With that said, I recently purchased a new M&P 9FS, and I can't help but wonder how I can train myself from keeping my finger out of the trigger hole. I mean my first impulse, when grabbing the weapon to rack the slide, is to have my finger in the trigger hole. I know that's a terrible habit, but with that in mind, it absolutely terrifies me to ever consider carrying with one in the chamber. Sorry to revive an old thread.

 

[Protected One]

Excellent thread!! I'm a new guy on the block (ex military from the early 70's), and I haven't handled a weapon in 25 years. With that said, I recently purchased a new M&P 9FS, and I can't help but wonder how I can train myself from keeping my finger out of the trigger hole. I mean my first impulse, when grabbing the weapon to rack the slide, is to have my finger in the trigger hole. I know that's a terrible habit, but with that in mind, it absolutely terrifies me to ever consider carrying with one in the chamber. Sorry to revive an old thread.

First...Welcome to the Forum!
Second...Thank you for your military service! and
Third...it's not the first time an "old thread" has been revived! At least it's a good one.
In answer to your question: Training, and LOTS of dry fire practice!