CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

[venomballistics]

Excellent thread!! I'm a new guy on the block (ex military from the early 70's), and I haven't handled a weapon in 25 years. With that said, I recently purchased a new M&P 9FS, and I can't help but wonder how I can train myself from keeping my finger out of the trigger hole. I mean my first impulse, when grabbing the weapon to rack the slide, is to have my finger in the trigger hole. I know that's a terrible habit, but with that in mind, it absolutely terrifies me to ever consider carrying with one in the chamber. Sorry to revive an old thread.

well .. obviously you know you need to work on buffing some of those old bad habits out of your handling.
very few have escaped that one and had to work on something at some time somewhere despite how they might climb down your throat about it today.

Next, is your understanding of your firearm.
If you can manage to rewind the tape (8 track I well imagine) to your boot camp days, you might recall drills pertaining to disassembly , cleaning, and assembly of standard arms.
while maintenance is forefront in these drills, they also serve the purpose of showing you how these things work.

strip that thing down, take your time, and understand how those parts play with each other.
when you understand how and when it works, you also understand how and when it won't.
this will contribute to your confidence in carrying with one in the pipe.

Japan, as we all know, forbids its citizenry, the possession of firearms.
as a result, those Japanese citizens who did have interest in firearms had to get clever.
as a result, there is the wonderful world of airsoft replica weapons. Somewhere, someone offers some form of replica of your firearm. It would not be a bad idea to use one to help you buff out some of your handling and even some marksmanship issues

 

[forrestinmathews]

Hello friends,
I was wondering if any of the condition three proponents would like to regale us with tales of their gunfighting successes with this method...?

*crickets*

I believe that carrying condition three is like kissing a coiled rattlesnake; IF you survive getting bitten, you're not going to try it ever again.

 

[Protected One]

Hello friends,
I was wondering if any of the condition three proponents would like to regale us with tales of their gunfighting successes with this method...?

*crickets*

I believe that carrying condition three is like kissing a coiled rattlesnake; IF you survive getting bitten, you're not going to try it ever again.

I'd be surprised if there weren't some people who survived an encounter while carrying in condition 3, but they should count themselves as lucky.

It's not just a matter of the extra time required to chamber a round, but also the possibility of a malfunction PREVENTING the round from chambering, or injury making their weak side hand/arm unavailable.

That is too many potential handicaps for me.

 

[raljr1]

a few months back I met a guy who was a firearms trainer for sig arms. he traveled the country training police departments in gun handling and response to life threatening situations. he told me that the average ccw holder would not be able to get his firearm into play fast enough to protect himself from a person seriously intent on doing harm. his rationale had as much to do with lack of preparedness as anything. without disputing his comment, and certainly being nowhere near trained myself for that type of situation, why would one add the additional time to rack a slide before bringing a firearm into action? kinda like buckling your seatbelt just when you're about to have an accident.

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[Pointer1]

A few weeks back two guys and a woman were confronted by the womans soon to be x he approached the three at the mall pulled his shirt up grab his weapon the two guys were cc holders they both drew the x fired the two returned fire the x was hit 7 times center mass one of the guys was hit in the arm and midsection. You never know what is going to happen better to be ready than what while I load one in the chamber

 

[S&W Fan]

The Israeli security forces (Shabak, protective details) used to carry in c3 with racking as part of the draw. No longer the case, as well as with some of the police units and army units that work the area in/near the territories/borders.

These guys trained this way for years, could do it very quickly in their sleep but eventually the training has moved to carrying loaded chambers, again mostly for the above mentioned units.

The philosophy about empty chamber was that it was one sure way to guarantee that what ever pistol you picked up by doing said system you knew your pistol was loaded. Especially when you have a large group of people that need to be trained in a short period of time, you could go along with the traditional military mind set of empty chamber except once outside the wire.

 

[TexasArmed]

I'd be surprised if there weren't some people who survived an encounter while carrying in condition 3, but they should count themselves as lucky.

It's not just a matter of the extra time required to chamber a round, but also the possibility of a malfunction PREVENTING the round from chambering, or injury making their weak side hand/arm unavailable.

That is too many potential handicaps for me.

When you put it like that, I had never thought about it, but
I knew there was some reason why I am much more comfortable with my revolvers. All the talk about ND's and
AD's I have never seen that happen with a revolver.

 

[Donn]

This subject is a well worn path, in this forum and others as well. I know we have new members joining all the time and to them, this is an honest question. That said, sometimes I wonder if someone throws chum in the water, then sits back and watches the feeding frenzy.

 

[pawncop]

A large number of posts outlining the danger and disadvantage of not having a round chambered. Add me to the column of saying if one feels uncomfortable with one in the chamber, then they should reconsider carrying a sidearm at all. There is a very good chance the gun will fall into the wrong hands.

 

[Rastoff]

Hello friends,
I was wondering if any of the condition three proponents would like to regale us with tales of their gunfighting successes with this method...?

There is a time when condition 3 is reasonable; when you have another firearm as a primary tool. At the base I was going to be stationed at in Afghanistan (never got there, but that's another story) we were required to carry the M9 in condition 3. However, we also had an M16/M4 in condition 1. I didn't like it, but it kept the uninitiated from setback issues by chambering a round many times. It also reduced the handling necessary.

I mean my first impulse, when grabbing the weapon to rack the slide, is to have my finger in the trigger hole.

Yes, terrible habit. So, practice getting your trigger finger on the reference point as you present the gun from the holster. The condition your gun is in makes no difference, this is a necessary part of gun handling.

All the talk about ND's and
AD's I have never seen that happen with a revolver.

I have seen all those same NDs with revolvers. The frequency is probably less due to revolvers being less prominent today. Nevertheless, I've seen every kind of stupidity carried out with every type of firearm. Due to the long, heavy DA pull of a revolver, I'm sure they are less, but they happen just the same.

 

[Protected One]

There is a time when condition 3 is reasonable; when you have another firearm as a primary tool. At the base I was going to be stationed at in Afghanistan (never got there, but that's another story) we were required to carry the M9 in condition 3. However, we also had an M16/M4 in condition 1. I didn't like it, but it kept the uninitiated from setback issues by chambering a round many times. It also reduced the handling necessary.

In the Military application you put forward - yes . I'm fairly confident that you aren't proposing a civilian could "reasonably" carry their backup gun in c3?

 

[Rastoff]

In the Military application you put forward - yes . I'm fairly confident that you aren't proposing a civilian could "reasonably" carry their backup gun in c3?

Right, I would never carry a gun in condition 3 and never recommend carrying that way. That's just an Air Force policy. I don't like it, but because the person would have another gun like a rifle, already in their hands, I guess I can't argue with it too hard.


Just to be clear, I agree with everyone else here. Without one in the pipe you have a paperweight. If it's not within arms reach, you don't have it.

 

[Protected One]

Right, I would never carry a gun in condition 3 and never recommend carrying that way. That's just an Air Force policy. I don't like it, but because the person would have another gun like a rifle, already in their hands, I guess I can't argue with it too hard.


Just to be clear, I agree with everyone else here. Without one in the pipe you have a paperweight. If it's not within arms reach, you don't have it.

Pheeew....you had me worried for a minute there, man!

 

[Rastoff]

It's all good brother.

Without exaggeration, I spend thousands of dollars and hundreds and hundreds of hours researching this kind of stuff. I try to keep an open mind and I'm always open to learn something new. If a person can make an intelligent argument for whatever their stance is, I'll listen and I'll respect their views. If I have a differing point of view, I will state my case in as simple and logical terms as possible. If I see/read something that I feel is potentially dangerous, I'll try very hard to dissuade someone from that path because I'm passionate about helping people.

There are subjects that are black and white and subjects that are grey. This is one of those slightly grey subjects. If a person wants to carry in condition 3, well, at least they have a gun. As you, ProtectedOne, and I have discussed before, the vast majority of crimes prevented with a gun result in ZERO shots being fired. So, with that in mind, it's not completely unreasonable to carry in condition 3. However, and this is a big one, we should never be preparing for the easy way out. We should never intend a bluff as our first move. We need to be prepared to deal with a situation by bringing as much force as we can to end that situation as quickly as possible. We prepare for the worst so that we're ready for anything.

This is why I harp on training so much. You'll most likely never need it, but if you do, you'll be glad you had it.

 

[gmiller0737]

Always a Round Chambered


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[Houdini1953]

I always carry with one in the chamber as many here do, in a self defense situation there is enough confusion going on so chambering a round is not one I need to worry about, hitting the target is my concern!

 

[Capt.Jim]

How many military and LEO's do u see walking around without one in the pipe?

My guess is they have more experience than most civilians. So why do they carry the way they do.

Just FYI..... I did it while I was in the military!

Who I was? A Sniper in the NATO Forces (Navy)

Where I was? Middle East!

My duty? Security of U.S. Air Force Base! (at 2 separate locations in 3 years)

Why? Because carrying chamber unloaded was the #1 rule!

 

[jimmyj]

Condition 3:
1. Arson Inspector- during an investigation (riot) he returned to his vehicle to obtain an needed item. Two rioters jumped Him and took Him to the ground. During the scuffle He was able to draw is weapon but was unable to fire due to His other hand holding off the rioters. Luckly two Patrol Officers came by and ended what could have been bad news for Mr. Condition 3.

2. Patrol Deputy trapped inside his Vehicle after a high speed pursuit that had the BG suddenly braking cause the Deputy to wreck. BG approached the trapped Deputy with a firearm intending to kill the Deputy. Deputy was able to draw His weapon but unable to used his other hand to work the slide and unable to reach a hard surface to one hand push the slide back. Arriving Backup Units took out the BG.

 

[Protected One]

Condition 3:
1. Arson Inspector- during an investigation (riot) he returned to his vehicle to obtain an needed item. Two rioters jumped Him and took Him to the ground. During the scuffle He was able to draw is weapon but was unable to fire due to His other hand holding off the rioters. Luckly two Patrol Officers came by and ended what could have been bad news for Mr. Condition 3.

2. Patrol Deputy trapped inside his Vehicle after a high speed pursuit that had the BG suddenly braking cause the Deputy to wreck. BG approached the trapped Deputy with a firearm intending to kill the Deputy. Deputy was able to draw His weapon but unable to used his other hand to work the slide and unable to reach a hard surface to one hand push the slide back. Arriving Backup Units took out the BG.

Thanks for the stories. Hope they help someone see the light.

 

[Capt.Jim]

As you said, in a non-close quarters encounter, having to chamber a round is not as big a disadvantage, but most self-defense situations ARE at close quarters.

Finally, I don't think most commenters here are trying to say "carry this way because I do", but rather - If you carry for the purpose of self-defense, this is DEMONSTRABLY the most efficient way to carry.

My response was directed to those few arrogant friends over here not to the people with the advice like yours.

We agree the BEST and MOST EFFICIENT way to carry a SD weapon is LOADED CHAMBER method...

But what is at discussion here is that some people confusing this carry method as if it is the ONLY WAY to carry.
Therefore they say stuff like "if it is not one in the chamber, don't carry at all" or "it is a useless paperweight".
My disagreement with their statements!

Who knows, maybe I don't have the infinite wisdom like some other people here who claims they've been shooting since the invention of the gun powder.

I remind them the story of Dr. Susan Gratia-Hupp's at Luby's shooting incident.
Do they think if she had her gun that day, she could've saved her parents' lives?
Do they think in her situation it could make any difference if she was carrying either way?

How about if you were sitting at row 17 in the Aurora movie theater?
If your preferred method of carry is with an unloaded chamber, would you prefer your gun to be left at home because you listened them or would you like it to be on your hip because you listened me?

Another friend telling a story in order to show us how it could be bad for an investigator who carries C3 when he was jumped by the rioters.
Still, even his that story our C3 guy ended up being OK.

But, for God's sake if you're going to be in a situation where rioters may jump you put one in the darn chamber before you
get there even if it wasn't your preferred carry method.
That's #1..

But the most important part of the story is that our C3 guy were jumped by UNARMED people...
I mean if those two rioters were armed and unloading their rounds into that investigator what kind of advantage he could've had if he had one or two or even three guns on him with loaded chambers?

BGs will always have the time advantage on their side because they know when their attack will happen.
It is a surprise for the victim. BGs generally don't advertise in advance.
But if you think you're being vigilant at all times and no chance a BG can come even close to you think again.
Most BGs in these days don't look like BGs.
Would you run away from him if the Boston bomber guy (younger brother) was walking by you?
Would you draw and yell STOP to the Santa Barbara guy as soon as he gets out of his brand new black BMW?
If you are their first victim of these guys you're screwed, if not, you have time to duck, cover, rack, change magazines and whatever else to defend yourself where carrying a gun with a loaded or unloaded chamber won't make a difference...
As long as you're carrying!

That's my point!