CCW: Keep one in the pipe?

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I tend to agree with you, but also hope that he gets to the point of being comfortable with C1 BEFORE a incident requires him to learn its (C3) tactical disadvantage first hand.

THANK GOD!!!
One person GOT the point!
Yes, they should get better or whatever....
But UNTIL THAT TIME THEY SHOULD STILL CARRY EVEN IF THEY PREFER C3.
That's the whole point!
Because there are many instances having a gun on you will SAVE you even if it's carried in C3!
Wheewww!
Man it is a tough crowd to communicate...
Iraqi villagers with Tarzan English was easier to communicate then some here:D
Geez!:rolleyes:
 
So what we're saying is that it's ok for someone new to guns to carry condition three because they are not comfortable with it?

So what else is it ok for them to do? Simply buy a gun, load it and strap it on? No training? No practice?

I don't think so. And that's the problem right there. There's always an excuse why we shouldn't do it right the first time.

Get quality training and practice and you won't be uncomfortable with condition one carry.

My opinion? Yes it is. But it also happens to be the prevailing opinion. Condition one is the PROPER method of carry when carrying a gun for self defense.

If you don't agree, fine, you control your destiny. But I would urge you to recheck your mindset.
 
I know there are posters/members from other countries, so my suggestion does not necessarily apply to them. This is America. As long as it's not in my yard, do what you want. Just be prepared for the consequences. I know what I'm going to do.
 
I still recommend that you get a one gun safe/security container.

Until you do, or if you choose not to, I recommend that you clear your firearm and practice getting it out of the holster when it's not on your body. It might be harder than you think.

As an alternative, I recommend that you find a way to SECURELY mount a holster (that or another) to the bed, nightstand or whatever heavy item is close enough to give you access to the firearm. That way you have instant access while keeping the trigger covered.

Copy. I changed my holster order from a retention holster with a lock (Safariland 7377) to a simpler design (Safariland 5197) with just a detent. Should do the trick to keep the trigger covered and has no fussy mechanism I have to think about to operate. I'l practice unloaded to make sure it draws smoothly.
 
So what else is it ok for them to do? Simply buy a gun, load it and strap it on? No training? No practice?
Yes, that's exactly how a right works.

It's true that the vast majority of those that carry have no training and never practice. We had one discussion not long ago where most of the respondents argued vehemently against getting training.

I think everyone who carries a gun should seek training. It's the right thing to do. However, it shouldn't be mandatory. I think having one in the chamber makes a person better prepared, but isn't the only way. I think a hip holster is better than a shoulder holster, but that's my preference, you may think differently.

So, yes, it's OK for them to do as they please as long as it isn't harming someone else.
 
It don't think much of carrying an unloaded gun. Just doesn't work for me. That said......

Being inexperienced and untrained aren't the only factors that can contribute to an unintentional discharge with routine carry gun handling. Fatigue, distraction and the "brain fart" are also part of it.

The only thing my carry guns have ever provided is peace of mind. I expect and hope that is all they will ever provide. So if someone is uneasy or otherwise nervous about carrying one in the pipe then he's not even getting the benefit of peace of mind.

if someone makes a decision that the odds/danger of an unintentional discharge with one in the pipe is greater than the odds/danger of not being able to charge his gun quickly enough in self defense then so be it. He may just be right for his own situation. Lots of guys unintentionally discharge their carry gun but have never used a gun in self defense, including experienced and trained individuals. It's not that crazy of a calculation. Though I don't subscribe to it for my carry.

What I do think is a very bad idea is C3 as a substitute for unsafe equipment or carry practices. Like using an improper holster for the gun. Just get the right equipment. Or believing it's ok to yank out your carry gun and wave it around for show and tell because it's unloaded. Keep your paws off your carry gun.
 
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Get quality training and practice and you won't be uncomfortable with condition one carry.

So what you're saying is 'don't carry that pistol until he's got quality training and practice?' What if his training class doesn't meet until next month? And how much practice does he need after that before carrying? Who gets to decide how much is enough? And what if his "time of need" occurs BEFORE all of that?
 
So what you're saying is 'don't carry that pistol until he's got quality training and practice?' What if his training class doesn't meet until next month? And how much practice does he need after that before carrying? Who gets to decide how much is enough? And what if his "time of need" occurs BEFORE all of that?

Nope, that's not what he's saying.
 
Nope, that's not what he's saying.

"So what else is it ok for them to do? Simply buy a gun, load it and strap it on? No training? No practice?

I don't think so
. And that's the problem right there. There's always an excuse why we shouldn't do it right the first time.

Get quality training and practice and you won't be uncomfortable with condition one carry.

My opinion? Yes it is. But it also happens to be the prevailing opinion. Condition one is the PROPER method of carry when carrying a gun for self defense.

If you don't agree, fine, you control your destiny. But I would urge you to recheck your mindset. "
__________________
Looks to me like that's EXACTLY what he's saying.
 
If we were still carrying flintlocks, would we carry them with powder in the flash pan or not?

If we were still carrying percussion revolvers, would we carry them with caps on the nipples?

Why would we carry last-ditch-self-defense guns in a state of less-than-ready? Examining the answer to this question will reveal discomfort with firearms on some level.
 
If we were still carrying flintlocks, would we carry them with powder in the flash pan or not?

If we were still carrying percussion revolvers, would we carry them with caps on the nipples?
Neither of these questions is relevant to what we're talking about. The powder wouldn't stay in the flash pan and a cap could easily be knocked by something else. The first is impossible and the second is unsafe. So, no, I wouldn't do either.
 
Neither of these questions is relevant to what we're talking about. The powder wouldn't stay in the flash pan and a cap could easily be knocked by something else. The first is impossible and the second is unsafe. So, no, I wouldn't do either.
You might want to read up on the actual use of black powder firearms.

Did Bill Hickock carry his Navy Colts uncapped? Are you aware of them ever going off without him pulling the triggers?
 
The thing about this discussion is that it will never end until all the champions of condition 3/empty chamber carrying/Barney Fifing have all had their weapons taken away from them by BG's and been beaten, shot or stabbed to death. It has become apparent that the survivors would still champion it out of foolish pride and staunch refusal to admit their own ignorance.

Keep on going with it and sleep well tonight knowing you may have convinced another fool to ride into history with nothing but 20.9% oxygen between the firing pin and the muzzle. Justify it with military or law enforcement background in an attempt to gain credibility. Tout safety and talk about how idiots who have failed to safely handle their weapons have shot themselves and probably wished they were carrying in condition doofus too.

Concealed carry is for personal protection not gun handling 101. This isn't a game. Load one, rack one, safe the pistol, load the rest, holster and cover it up. If you can't make this happen...don't carry. You're likely to screw it up for the responsible gun owners. Train to competency and then defend your village and yourself.
 
I believe if this gentleman feels the most comfortable carrying a self defense gun without one in the chamber, that is how he should carry it.
He is doing so at his level of comfort and training.

I do Not rely on him or anybody else to defend me, or my own, if the need would arise.

I on the other hand, carry chambered as I will want any and all the advantage I can get, if the unfortunate need arises.

Just my .02 cents worth.

PC945

Well said. I do not agree with the practice of an unloaded chamber but to each his own.

Ed
 
Neither of these questions is relevant to what we're talking about. The powder wouldn't stay in the flash pan and a cap could easily be knocked by something else. The first is impossible and the second is unsafe. So, no, I wouldn't do either.

It absolutely is relevant.

Handguns have been realistic and useful self-defense implements since flintlocks; thus including percussion arms as well. Wheel-locks and match-locks were not particularly effective self defense arms due to the additional steps necessary to make the arm ready...
 
Neither of these questions is relevant to what we're talking about. The powder wouldn't stay in the flash pan and a cap could easily be knocked by something else. The first is impossible and the second is unsafe. So, no, I wouldn't do either.

As some states define whether or not a priming charge or cap's presence on the muzzleloading firearm to define "loaded" or "unloaded" it is totally relevant. A muzzleloader without caps or priming charge in place would be seen as equally foolish as Condition Fife. So you came up short there partner.

To those tolerators and apologists of Condition Barney Fife/3/round missing from chamber:
I think you fail to see the liability they pose to you; these false half-witted carriers of self defense firearms. By their reckless nature of ill preparedness and half readied weapons carriage they wittingly and recklessly expose you to death, danger and demise. By the very weapon which they knowingly fail to load and thence comport themselves as prepared responsible citizens they do thereby endanger the citizenry by introducing a weapon into the public domain to be used by their attacker in their own murder. Furthermore they do negligently expose the citizens in their immediate vicinity to murder, robbery, and general discomfort at the hands of said murderer who would have been less well armed if said murdered person had diligently and fully prepared his weapon and maintained it upon his person in accordance with common sense and accepted self defense tactics. The presence of a firearm in public which does not stand ready to support goodness will surely be appropriated for evil at first avail. Consider the collateral damage the unprepared person's contributory negligence will cause when he fails to stop the evildoer and thus arms him or in someway hastens him along in his diabolical plot because he was not standing proper guard over himself and his community with a ready and serviceable weapon. Would the carrier of the Fife pistol have had the decency to chamber a round he could have eliminated a risk to himself and others by being in the most ready and reactive state while conveying his firearm in a manner consistent with one who comports himself as a decent person and an upstanding member of the community.

Basically stated the people who want to do this are not highly trained Israeli operatives. They are gun bobblers who are too afraid to carry a gun properly, too foolish and arrogant not to carry at all, and supremely ignorant of the fact that they require further training to carry a firearm safely. It's your tail on the line too, don't think they don't pose a risk to you as well.
 
one in the tube

In Korea 1951 a shell concussion parted me from my M-1. A gook machine gun was doing a good job of pinning my unit down. The explosion knocked me over a rocky pile and allowed me to flank the gooks. Had two grenades which I dumped into the nest. I had a S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece (illegal) on a side holster. I was checking the enemy bodies when a young Chinaman charge at me with a rifle and bayonet which by luck I was able to knock aside drew the .38 and when it discharged it was about 4 inches from this mans nose. This situation has driven into my soul three things. 1. Never shoot someone unless and I mean unless there is no other choice (I still see his face in dreams as I pulled the trigger over 60 years ago).2:be sure you can draw your weapon without thinking about when it is needed. 3. have it ready to fire before it clears the holster and maybe you'll live to talk about it. I carry a Glock 36 in a locking poly holster. I also found that holstering the gun can be more dangerous than drawing it.
 
In Korea 1951 a shell concussion parted me from my M-1. A gook machine gun was doing a good job of pinning my unit down. The explosion knocked me over a rocky pile and allowed me to flank the gooks. Had two grenades which I dumped into the nest. I had a S&W .38 Combat Masterpiece (illegal) on a side holster. I was checking the enemy bodies when a young Chinaman charge at me with a rifle and bayonet which by luck I was able to knock aside drew the .38 and when it discharged it was about 4 inches from this mans nose. This situation has driven into my soul three things. 1. Never shoot someone unless and I mean unless there is no other choice (I still see his face in dreams as I pulled the trigger over 60 years ago).2:be sure you can draw your weapon without thinking about when it is needed. 3. have it ready to fire before it clears the holster and maybe you'll live to talk about it. I carry a Glock 36 in a locking poly holster. I also found that holstering the gun can be more dangerous than drawing it.

Thanks for sharing the story and in spite of the dreams, I'm glad YOU were the one who survived the encounter...instead of the other way around.

To the point of this thread: There are countless stories of people who were threatened by an armed attackers and survived without firing a round because when revealed, the mere presence of their gun scared the threat off. Doubt that has happened much in war. Comparison of the level of preparedness required by soldiers to that of civilians carries no weight with me. :cool:
 
As some states define whether or not a priming charge or cap's presence on the muzzleloading firearm to define "loaded" or "unloaded" it is totally relevant. A muzzleloader without caps or priming charge in place would be seen as equally foolish as Condition Fife. So you came up short there partner.

To those tolerators and apologists of Condition Barney Fife/3/round missing from chamber:
I think you fail to see the liability they pose to you; these false half-witted carriers of self defense firearms. By their reckless nature of ill preparedness and half readied weapons carriage they wittingly and recklessly expose you to death, danger and demise. By the very weapon which they knowingly fail to load and thence comport themselves as prepared responsible citizens they do thereby endanger the citizenry by introducing a weapon into the public domain to be used by their attacker in their own murder. Furthermore they do negligently expose the citizens in their immediate vicinity to murder, robbery, and general discomfort at the hands of said murderer who would have been less well armed if said murdered person had diligently and fully prepared his weapon and maintained it upon his person in accordance with common sense and accepted self defense tactics. The presence of a firearm in public which does not stand ready to support goodness will surely be appropriated for evil at first avail. Consider the collateral damage the unprepared person's contributory negligence will cause when he fails to stop the evildoer and thus arms him or in someway hastens him along in his diabolical plot because he was not standing proper guard over himself and his community with a ready and serviceable weapon. Would the carrier of the Fife pistol have had the decency to chamber a round he could have eliminated a risk to himself and others by being in the most ready and reactive state while conveying his firearm in a manner consistent with one who comports himself as a decent person and an upstanding member of the community.

Basically stated the people who want to do this are not highly trained Israeli operatives. They are gun bobblers who are too afraid to carry a gun properly, too foolish and arrogant not to carry at all, and supremely ignorant of the fact that they require further training to carry a firearm safely. It's your tail on the line too, don't think they don't pose a risk to you as well.

While you pose a great "hypothetical" argument for the danger untrained carriers pose to the rest of us, it is quickly overshadowed by the lack of sufficient real life examples of the scenarios you put forth. That, when combined with the endless records of "untrained individuals" successfully using their weapons in defense of themselves (and others)...your argument becomes even less relevant.

By that type of logic the anti-gun crowd would be right in their belief that the handful of mass killings committed by maniacs justifies trying to deprive law abiding citizens of handguns - in spite of the MANY MORE LIVES SAVED by them (primarily by untrained people). :cool:
 
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