CHL holder trying to break up a fight loses pistol, is killed by police

[adwjc]

Your objective point is correct. The necessary facts are not provided.

However, it is a bit ironic to accuse the other forum member of bias without leveling the same charge against the many more posters who have expended many words explaining in great detail why it is not the police officers' fault.

The officers were the professionals on the scene. Since they killed a man who was (objectively at least) not a threat, they failed, and it is their responsibility to explain why that was unavoidable. It may well have been, given the dead guy's mistakes. Whether circumstances provide them with sufficient evidence to show that is impossible to tell from the video. The investigation will need to determine that. Until then, neither condemnation nor benefit of the doubt are appropriate.

I don't take lightly the fact that man was killed, whether he was a "known offender", "bad" guy, or a law abiding CCW holder. Those cops will have to account for their actions, whether that is in a criminal or civil court, administratively or within their own conscience.


My post was concerned with the stated belief that the officers would "get away" whereas another person (CCW) would be taken to task.


If neither condemnation nor benefit of the doubt are appropriate, then let's withhold both.

 

[Rustyt1953]

Case in point - I have many relatives in a western European country who can't resist commenting unpleasantly on many aspects of US society, based primarily on what they see on TV and read in the so-called news media. I have given up trying to educate them and explain to them that we aren't like what they see presented. No more than a handful have ever been here, and those few keep coming back.

I too have cousins in England that are convinced that 'Reservoir Dogs' is a documentary.

 

[Wise_A]

It is not just in America that people buy expensive pieces of junk. That is where "customer service" should come into the equation when buying.

I'm not entirely sure what "crazy idea" you are referring to.

Tell you the truth, Kiwi, I find you more American than most Americans.

But yes, I speak three languages: English, obscenity, and sarcasm. It's fairly common to see someone drop $800-$1000 on a carry gun, and shove it in a $10-$20 holster.

 

[Rastoff]

I too have cousins in England that are convinced that 'Reservoir Dogs' is a documentary.

It's not?

 

[681ismyfavorite]

I too have cousins in England that are convinced that 'Reservoir Dogs' is a documentary.

and its either Reno 911 or Training Day on how police operate; when in fact it a little of both. LOL

 

[CB3]

While many poor decisions led up to this man's unfortunate death, the one that really matters, the proximate cause, was his choice to carry his gun the way he did, which led to it being dropped on the ground.

The gun was not visible in the early part of the video. It does not appear to have been open carried. At the point where the cops arrive and actually physically interact with the CCW, the gun is visible in the video as if sticking out of or coming out of his pocket. No one is trying to grab it or get it away from him. It appears to be irresponsibly unsecured.

If that gun was properly secured and concealed, not just dropped in his pocket, all his other mistakes leading up to this point in the video would not likely have caused his death. Not having the training and/or presence of mind to not pick up the gun when officers were present was a secondary mistake. Not hearing or understanding the officers' commands may be understandable on his part for a variety of reasons, none of which matter to the safety of the crowd and the officers.

This was unfortunate, but preventable, and not by the cops. Carrying concealed puts one at a higher degree of accountability for decisions and actions. It is a risk we take because the possible perceived benefits (saving our lives) are greater, and the risks can be dealt with through training and clear headed thinking (not drinking, MYOB). Just carrying a gun does not automatically bestow the skills necessary to avoid a situation like this or avoid responsibility for the aftermath.

 

[Rastoff]

Excellent post CB3. I saw exactly what you saw.

It appears to be irresponsibly unsecured.

If that gun was properly secured and concealed, not just dropped in his pocket, all his other mistakes leading up to this point in the video would not likely have caused his death.

This is just one issue I have with pocket carry. If the pocket is large enough to allow easy access, situations like this are possible. If the pocket is small/tight enough to prevent situations like this, it's difficult to get out. A quality holster solves both issues.

Not having the training and/or presence of mind to not pick up the gun when officers were present was a secondary mistake. Not hearing or understanding the officers' commands may be understandable on his part for a variety of reasons, none of which matter to the safety of the crowd and the officers.

Indeed a difficult situation. I'm sure the only thought going through his mind was, "Drat (pretty sure he used a different epithet though), I dropped my gun. Can't leave that there." I'll bet he didn't hear the cops at all. I don't blame the police at all in this situation because they couldn't possibly know what his intent was when picking up the gun.

Just carrying a gun does not automatically bestow the skills necessary to avoid a situation like this or avoid responsibility for the aftermath.

"Owning a gun doesn't make you armed any more than owning a guitar makes you a musician." -Col Jeff Cooper

That's my favorite quote concerning guns. Far too many have the idea that because they have a gun, they're safe. Nothing could be further from the truth. I harp on getting training and doing practice a lot and receive a lot of flack for doing so. This particular person is someone who should have known better. His training was for military situations, not general civilian carry. There is a difference.

 

[moosedog]

Being at the bar in the hood, checking out the women, everyone drinking and packing nines and forties, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[BigSky!]

In reviewing the facts as we know them, so far, it is clear that the deceased is to blame for what happened. I use the term "blame" loosely and only to reference: a) carrying in a bar, b) inserting himself in a hostile/combative situation while armed, c) carrying in a manner that his weapon was not secure; and, d) not following police commands (even if he did not hear them or assumed they were directed at someone else).

The fact is, as well-intended as the deceased may have been and as good of a person as he apparently was, his actions created this situation and are to "blame". Please note that my use of "blame" is not intended to denigrate this individual in any way. He caused his own demise, unintentionally as it may be. Based on the facts as we know them, with nothing additional to the contrary, I submit that the officers' failing to act as they did would have been negligent and probably even grossly negligent.

With the benefit of hindsight, this is truly tragic. Even with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't make the officers' actions wrong. Sad and tragic? Yes. Wrong? No. Unfortunately these officers will live with this the rest of their lives and even regret it forever. Nothing we or anybody else will say will ever erase the guilt they feel because of what they now know, after the fact.

If new facts come to light, I will happily rescind what I have typed here today. I speculate they will not. Hopefully, his death will cause others to remedy and preclude, in advance, similar actions and behavior.

 

[Rastoff]

In reviewing the facts as we know them, so far, it is clear that the deceased is to blame for what happened. I use the term "blame" loosely and only to reference: a) carrying in a bar,...

What does carrying in a bar have anything to do with this?

If you were to say, "being drunk" then I would agree with you, but just carrying in a bar isn't a crime in many states.

 

[BigSky!]

What does carrying in a bar have anything to do with this?

If you were to say, "being drunk" then I would agree with you, but just carrying in a bar isn't a crime in many states.

First, it's a compilation of all of my asserted reasons. To pacify you, remove that one, and all others apply. I probably incorrectly inferred that from what I read about the location. Having said that, drunks celebrating a national championship, while at a bar or a party, tend to behave as drunks. Not always; but, sometimes, like say, this exact situation. I guess he possibly happened upon the bar scene and was never in the bar. If that's the case, once again, I happily and readily remove that from my asserted reasons.

I do know it isn't a crime in many states. I didn't say it was against the law in the state in question here.
I wouldn't even assert that as I don't know. It is irrelevant in this case. Heck, in my state it is illegal to conceal carry in a bar but legal to open carry in a bar. That doesn't make it a good idea if one is inclined to get involved with fights between other drunks. Anyway, like I said, especially if you disagree. Remove that from the other three mistakes he made, in my opinion, and he was the proximate cause.

In my opinion and my opinion only, that is a bad idea. At least in this case, that is the subject matter of this thread, it was clearly a very bad idea.

 

[ASA335]

Nothing that I have read or heard so far indicates that Jason Washington (the suspect/victim) was in the bar. I'm not saying he wasn't, just that none of the reports (i'm aware of) have said that he was. None of the videos I have watched show him inside the bar. He may have come just to pick up his buddy and discovered the fight in progress outside the bar.

 

[Wise_A]

What does carrying in a bar have anything to do with this?

If you were to say, "being drunk" then I would agree with you, but just carrying in a bar isn't a crime in many states.

I'll tell you a story I read on these here forums, Rast, and my exceptionally sarcastic response to it.

Guy writes about three times he was in proximity to people being shot. First time, he's in a bar, and some guy walks in and executes a guy sitting and drinking a few stools down. Second time, he's some sort of military police, guy gets into a bar fight and winds up slugging a lady officer. While he's pursuing the guy, the lady's boyfriend drives up and shoots the guy as he's running. Third time--I can't remember. Some idiot got shot in/around a bar.

So the guy writes, "That's why I left Colorado!" See, while I analyzed those three events and came away with "bars", he came up with "Colorado", like it was some big square of no damn sense at all.

 

[Ziggy2525]

...
So the guy writes, "That's why I left Colorado!" See, while I analyzed those three events and came away with "bars", he came up with "Colorado", like it was some big square of no damn sense at all.

Until recently my daughter and family were living outside Denver, so I would check out the Denver Post regularly. I'm thinking the guy that came up with "Colorado" might have been on to something.

 

[Rastoff]

He may have come just to pick up his buddy and discovered the fight in progress outside the bar.

This may be true. There are many other possibilities why he was there.

Personally I don't see a bar as any different than any other place. We talk a lot about our 2nd amendment rights. We talk a lot about how people should blame the actions, not the gun. None of in my mind, none of that changes because a person is in a bar. It's what they do, not where they are that's important.

Yes, people tend to act differently when intoxicated. So what? That doesn't change what I do. It's up to me to be cognizant of what I'm doing with my gun. It's up to me to ensure it's handled safely and securely. It's my fault if I don't do those things.

In my opinion, any law dictating that I cannot carry in a particular place is infringing on my right. That said, there are some places where it makes sense to me to not carry. A bar isn't one of them.

I don't blame this guy for legally having his gun at a bar. I blame him for not controlling it properly, period. And for that lack of control, he has paid the ultimate penalty.

 

[681ismyfavorite]

It seems a lot of folks are missing the real problem from that incident.

in a bar or not..... if Joe Schmoe was involved in some sort of disturbance and starts reaching for a gun, and the cops say not to, and he keeps reaching for the gun.....

here is some free advice for anyone who needs it. if the cops are around, empty your damn hands and leave them that way. do not reach or even pretend to reach for a gun. this applies in a bar, outside of a bar, near a bar, across the street from a bar, in a town with a bar, in a state that issues licenses to a bar, even if there is no bar anywhere.

the bar had nothing to do with this, reaching for a gun with the cops there did.

 

[mrmike7189]

and its either Reno 911 or Training Day on how police operate; when in fact it a little of both. LOL

Super Troopers!
Thats how they do it in Vermont!

 

[BigSky!]

It seems a lot of folks are missing the real problem from that incident.

in a bar or not..... if Joe Schmoe was involved in some sort of disturbance and starts reaching for a gun, and the cops say not to, and he keeps reaching for the gun.....

I've been carrying for 35+ years and this has always been my biggest fear, especially now in light of my military-induced hearing loss, slight as it is. Even as an instructor I tell people to be prepared for the fact that when law enforcement officers show up, they do not immediately know who is a good guy and who is a bad guy.

 

[Bangler]

He had to be drunk, why else would he pick up his sidearm after the police telling him not to?

 

[ASA335]

Possibly...

He had to be drunk, why else would he pick up his sidearm after the police telling him not to?

1. because he was surrounded by an aggressive angry group and he wanted to regain control of his handgun before one of them did, or

2. because of the dynamics of the situation, the noise of people yelling, or some personal hearing issue he may not of fully heard or understood the commands, or

3. because he didn't know the commands for him and not for somebody else in that aggressive angry group, or

4. a combination of the above?