Civilians versus terrorists with armor?

[Don 73]

IMO, the BEST things you can do is:

A) Increase your situational awareness. You can't be surprised if you're expecting it

B) Practice at longer ranges than usual. Having the targets father away will magnify your mistakes and allow you to correct them, plus if you can routinely make center mass/head shots at 30' - 50' then at combat distances, you'll be an ace.

C) Find a way to control your "fight vs flight" and other adrenaline caused responses. Adrenaline is good, but uncontrolled it can take away your focus, your responses and even your ability to act.

D) Realistically, you won't want to run TOWARD the shooter, you might reach him just as the cops do and YOU could be mistaken for a second suspect

E) Unless you are directly under attack, or the attacker is close enough to smell him, don't engage. As a citizen in this, your #1 priority is for you and your family to survive, a distant #2 would be to take a close attacker out

 

[BB57]

I recently picked up a 2 1/2 inch model 19-3. One day after spending some quality time with my 300 Blackout at a nearby 50 yard indoor range I got it in my head to try the model 19 out at 50 yards. Put up an NRA 25 yard rapid fire target and ran it all the way to the back of the range. Then I cocked that model 19, sighted it carefully, and fired 2 full cylinders at that target. Every single hit was inside the 7 ring (11 inches) and 8 out of 12 were inside the 8 ring (7.75 inches).

Point being I would not rule out head shots. Spend some time shooting at long range and take care to use proper technique and you just may be surprised at what you are capable of.

Our local outdoor range doesn't allow steel targets closer than 25 yards, in large part due to many of the locals showing up with homemade mild steel targets and/or people who don't know how to hang a steel plate properly.

The upside of that is that I can still have great fun hitting steel plates at 25 yards and 50 yards with a variety of handguns. I have one particular 8" round plate with a 3" gong in the center. It's fairly common to go 5 for 5 with a 3" J-frame on that 3" center target from a two hand, offhand position.

With my 6" Model 19 and my 6" Security Six, going 6 for 6 at 50 yards on a 6" target is common.

Unfortunately, when you start doing those kinds of things other shooters say things like "Wow...great shooting!" when it really isn't all that exceptional. It's within the ability of most shooters if they'd a) realize what's possible and b) focus on some basic handgun marksmanship principles.

Back when I started shooting, NRA Bullseye competition was widespread with regular postal matches held even in rural areas. With the 5.5" bullseye on the 25 yard B8 target and an 8" bullseye on the 50 yard B6 target, people were able to see that those levels of accuracy were not only possible, but fairly pedestrian for an experienced shooter.

Sadly, the mindset now seems to be that if you can stay on the torso sized B27 target at 10 yards, you're a good shot. Along with this is an over emphasis on speed at the expense of good combat accuracy, as many shooters think that speed and accuracy are diametrically opposed, failing to realize that with proper skills development you can shoot very rapidly, with surprising accuracy at social shooting distances.

I try to mix in a combination of speed drills at short ranges of 7-10 yards and accuracy drills at 25 yards, and occasionally 50 yards with my self defense handguns on every range trip. The accuracy portion of the session is important to ensure that you don't start sacrificing accuracy for speed. Misses don't win gunfights.

 

[Arik]

You will probably never encounter a terrorist in several lifetimes, but remember that terrorist with a bomb belt or vest have a dead switch,when they go down it goes off.
Your better off running because it's a no win situation with a handgun.
Rifle and distance could only win .

What dead switch? None of the Parris attackers had dead switches! How are they going to shoot, reload and hold a switch?

 

[cmort666]

You will probably never encounter a terrorist in several lifetimes, but remember that terrorist with a bomb belt or vest have a dead switch,when they go down it goes off.
Your better off running because it's a no win situation with a handgun.
Rifle and distance could only win .

1. How does somebody change magazines on a Kalashnikov multiple times with a dead man switch?
2. The Army taught me a number of useful things. #1 was that NOBODY can outrun a bullet. SOP for near ambushes is to CHARGE the ambush while delivering the utmost shock and violence. A terrorist attack in close proximity to you is the very definition of a near ambush.

I may get shot, but it won't be in the back... much less in the back of the head, on my knees, execution style.

 

[The Big D]

Amazing!

Can likely count on one hand the number of times I have agreed with cmort666...but this is one of them. And am wholly in agreement with his last words.

Be safe.

1. How does somebody change magazines on a Kalashnikov multiple times with a dead man switch?
2. The Army taught me a number of useful things. #1 was that NOBODY can outrun a bullet. SOP for near ambushes is to CHARGE the ambush while delivering the utmost shock and violence. A terrorist attack in close proximity to you is the very definition of a near ambush.

I may get shot, but it won't be in the back... much less in the back of the head, on my knees, execution style.

(emphasis added)

 

[Laketime]

That's exactly why I own .50 cal Desert Eagles.

 

[usm1rifle]

Terrorists are why I carry an M1 Garand with M2 AP.

 

[MXP]

You just need the right ammunition for you handguns:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKMz3tYx-M"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyKMz3tYx-M[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3K1VgJpiNE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3K1VgJpiNE[/ame]

It may be possible to "homemade" these projectiles with a hard kernel of wolfram carbide....

 

[shotgun693]

If you are a civilian, retired Cop or retired military and there is a terrorist attack, do your very best to get out of the area taking your family members and friends with you. You will be out gunned. You will not have any communications with the Police/First Responders and no one will know you are a good guy, you'll just be an unknown with a gun. You will not have your AR, Garand, Grenade Launcher or other neat stuff with you. You will not have Air Support nor Artillery. You will have an easy to carry handgun. There is the high likely hood that, at the least, you will tie up Police in trying to figure out who you are or, they might even kill you. If, if, by wild chance you get the opportunity to shoot a for sure bad guy, then do it. Then do your best to leave the area and consider yourself very lucky. After everything is over you can go to the local agency and report what you did.

 

[cmort666]

If you are a civilian, retired Cop or retired military and there is a terrorist attack, do your very best to get out of the area taking your family members and friends with you.

That didn't seem to be part of the plan for the Paris murderers.

You will be out gunned.

Not after I shoot Jihad Johnny in the head and take his Kalashnikov.

"You will be outgunned" sounds an awful lot like the "What if the robber has a BIGGER gun???" so beloved of anti-gunners.

I seem to recall four ships, the U.S.S. Johnston, the U.S.S. Heerman, the U.S.S. Samuel B. Roberts, and the U.S.S. Hoel that were also "outgunned". Had they followed your advice, the Leyte invasion force would have had a VERY bad day...

You will not have any communications with the Police/First Responders and no one will know you are a good guy, you'll just be an unknown with a gun.

Certainly if you leave them to their work, the guys with the Kalashnikovs, surrounded by dead toddlers at Santa's Village will be easy to identify...

After everything is over you can go to the local agency and report what you did.

Then I can go home and eat my gun out of pure unadulterated shame.

 

[Arik]

The only thing I can think of in this type of situation is carry enough gun and enough ammo. Vests stop bullets but they also hurt like hell and break bones! There is also possibility secondary trauma to internal organs. The vest that's directly on your body just stopped a chunk of metal going 900 - 1500 (depending on cal) fps ....dead stop! Keep plugging away!

A lot of vests don't protect the sides. If you have a side shot....

And if you know you're a good and fast shot and opportunity presents go for the lower abdomen/groin and upper inner legs. That's your guts, hip bone (good luck moving with a broken/shattered hip bone) and also the main artery. Head of course but that's not an easy thing to hit under stress

 

[cmort666]

And if you know you're a good and fast shot and opportunity presents go for the lower abdomen/groin and upper inner legs. That's your guts, hip bone (good luck moving with a broken/shattered hip bone) and also the main artery. Head of course but that's not an easy thing to hit under stress

During WWII, if Shermans or Churchills couldn't hit a Tiger in the rear, they hit it in the tracks and road wheels to immobilize it so that somebody could circle behind it.

The guaranteed way to lose a fight is to just give up.

 

[David LaPell]

Please refer to the Mozambique drill, also known as the failure to stop, or as we were told when we practiced it, the body armor drill.

The whole thing of ripping three rounds off (two to the body and one to the head) is not how that drill is meant to be practiced. There should be a noticeable delay from the two body shots to the one head shot.
I was never worried about terrorists when I used to take an inmate to some backwater court at 7-8pm in the middle of the sticks when any back up was at least 20 minutes away. I was worried about some idiot who was mad at the guy I had with me and would try to take them out and would be fueled up on liquid courage. To me you are more likely to run into someone high or drunk then body armor and the outcome might be the same. It's amazing to watch someone boozed up or high take punishment, seen it before and it's astounding.

We had a shooting here about 8-9 years ago, some guy doped up on pills and booze got mad at his ex and shot six .357 rounds through her front door, luckily the door and the other side of the trailer were the only casualties there. He led cops on a slow speed chase for about 30 miles until spike strips took out his truck. He got out, and tried his end of a Mexican standoff, he had a Colt Peacekeeper (ugly flat black .357) and he had 6 rounds versus something like 8-9 cops. He opened up, hit one Sergeant in the vest with a Winchester 158 grain JHP and it didn't penetrate the vest, then another sheriff and that hit the pepper spray can which popped and sent some shrapnel into the officers side but nothing serious. In the end he received something like 12-13 bullet wounds coming from all directions, which were a variety of .45 ACP, .45 GAP and .223. The autopsy said it was the two head shots that ended it, one .45 from temple to temple and a .223 in the forehead. He looked like a cheese grater everywhere else but was standing through it until the headshots put out the lights.

 

[BB57]

If you are a civilian, retired Cop or retired military and there is a terrorist attack, do your very best to get out of the area taking your family members and friends with you. You will be out gunned. You will not have any communications with the Police/First Responders and no one will know you are a good guy, you'll just be an unknown with a gun. You will not have your AR, Garand, Grenade Launcher or other neat stuff with you. You will not have Air Support nor Artillery. You will have an easy to carry handgun. There is the high likely hood that, at the least, you will tie up Police in trying to figure out who you are or, they might even kill you. If, if, by wild chance you get the opportunity to shoot a for sure bad guy, then do it. Then do your best to leave the area and consider yourself very lucky. After everything is over you can go to the local agency and report what you did.

The problem with this bolded portion of this response is that it's not a very accurate assessment of how it will probably go down.

If you look at the numbers over the last 10 years in mass shooting incidents, the killing is completed before the police arrive in vast majority of incidents. In about 20% of mass shootings the shooter goes mobile, and in another 20% or so he just walks away. In about half the cases where he's still around when the police arrive, he's likely to just kill himself. Which leaves a pretty small percentage of incidents where the police response is meaningful in terms of preventing deaths of civilians.

It's improving somewhat as more departments are training officers to take an immediate response and not simply evacuate the warm zone and contain the situation until the SWAT team arrives. The lessons have been learned over and over again that an immediate response by the first 1-3 officers on the scene are the best way to save lives. The downside of this immediate action approach however is that the responding officers get shot about 30% of the time.

I think we all agree that if escape is an option for you and your family, take it. But no one should ever make the mistake of thinking that the police are going to arrive in time to prevent anyone from getting killed or injured, as when all is said and done, when seconds count, the police at still going to be minutes away.

This is also the US, not the sandbox and the terrorist attacks in the US have ben notable in terms of the general ineptitude of would be bombers, and a general reliance on commonly available firearms, not full auto AK-47s, RPG-7s, etc.

Will you be outgunned with a handgun? Probably. But on the other hand the average domestic terrorists we've seen in the US have not been all that proficient with the firearms they have and a well trained armed citizen will be far more effective than most people tend to think.

The numbers indicate that even unarmed citizens do surprisingly well in ending mass shootings before the police arrive. Consider that between 2000 and 2010 of some 87 mass shootings, 24 ended with the police killing or subduing the shooter. In comparison 16 mass shootings were ended by the would be victims killing or subduing the shooter. In only 3 of those cases were the would be victims armed and able to kill the shooter with gun fire.

That's a reflection on that fact that only an estimated 1 in 20 adults in the US has a concealed carry permit, and that at best only half of those individuals are likely to conceal carry on a daily basis (and that estimate is probably high). On the other hand that 2.5% of the adult population is responsible for ending 19% of mass shootings ended by civilians, and 7.5% of all mass shootings ended by police or civilians. That's an over representation of 7.5 to 1 and 3 to 1 respectively.

That suggests the odds of an armed citizen ending a mass shooting or terrorist attack are actually quite good. You just need to be armed in the first place.

 

[Stephanie B]

The lessons have been learned over and over again that an immediate response by the first 1-3 officers on the scene are the best way to save lives. The downside of this immediate action approach however is that the responding officers get shot about 30% of the time.

Or, as the CG used to say: "You have to go. You don't have to come back." The literature I've read on active shooters is pretty consistent: Fast responses save lives.

 

[Doug M.]

^ Yup.

If you are in public : Carry a gun. At least one. One you can shoot very well. Load it with good quality proven ammo that has made Doc Roberts' list. Carry at least one reload. If you have trained with it, have a WML in addition to your flashlight. Carry a knife accessible to your off hand, partly as a weapon retention tool, but mostly to cut stuff that needs to be cut right now, like seat belts at a wreck. Carry a cell phone; wear your earpiece at all times when in public. I have made good use of mine calling 911 twice in the last 18 months, once for an officer in need of assistance whom neither I nor responding officers could locate quickly. (I found him first and passed it on.)

Carry those things every day, every minute. Except for work, don't go to places where you cannot be lawfully armed. Don't go to stupid places, like most bars. If there is dancing other than ballroom, leave. If you begin to think you are in a stupid place because you did not know better at first, or because someone is acting up - leave.

Know your state laws regarding use of force. Know your capability. Maintain good physical condition. It is not unknown to have good guys die from a heart attack in the stress of a critical incident. Study, understand and apply tactics. Learn to be observant, perceptive, and decisive. Not only do seconds kill, parts of seconds kill. Don't dawdle. This applies to all of your life, day in/day out.

Terrorists: low grade threat for most of us, most of the time. Far less than car crashes and the flu. Apply the above as if it matters, because it does, and if you get caught up in what appears to be a terrorist incident, you will be as prepared as you can be. (If you want to be more prepared, or think you can be, join the military and go to a SOCOM unit, or LE and join a full time SWAT unit - but most of the time, those folks will not be able to respond, and will not be timely. That's putting aside that the folks who can do such things are very different from the rest of us - even at my best and toughest I would not have made the simplest screening. Drift over.) Serious terrorists will use complex tactics, including diversions, explosives, secondary attacks. Some will be of near military quality. Question: if you go to an airport (or someplace else) and you see an apparently empty vehicle where it does not belong, like a marked "no parking" zone or the like, what do you do? If your answer is not "leave the area as fast I can while calling 911 and passing on as much good info as I can", slap yourself until you overcome your mindset flaws. Seen that. Abandoned luggage in an airport - evade, notify closest employee with apparent security duties. Sure, most of the time it was the result of idiocy and the idiot will be embarrassed and inconvenienced - and they need to be.

If someone like the shooter in Colorado Springs pops up in front of you - dump him. LE is almost certain 60+ seconds out, best case. 3 minutes is more likely, even with good response times, and 5-10 is foreseeable before one officer can arrive, and start hunting. If you hear something you think could be shots, the odds of you successfully hunting that person are slim - you probably need to escape. If taken hostage, be grateful your pistol(s) are concealed - when you get the drop on the hostage taker, dump him/her - with no warning. If you are in a fair fight, your tactics suck - and you are a fool.

 

[Lt JL]

Who wants to get shot at? Run away. If you can't run away, find a good place to hide. If you can't do that, you'd better be good at head and pelvis shots.
Also, if you haven't been shot at, it's hard to know what your reaction is going to be.

 

[cmort666]

Who wants to get shot at? Run away.

Who wants to get shot in the back?

Can you run 2,396 feet per second? I can't.

I was a lousy runner as a 21 year old Infantry 2nd Lt. At 57, I'm not one SECOND faster. At no point in my life have I ever been able to outrun a 122gr. 7.62mm bullet.

Any day of the week I've got a better chance for survival by shooting my attempted murderer(s) than by trying to run faster than the speed of sound.

 

[Mister X]

Much depends on the specific scenario and distance from the shooter(s), but fleeing is generally going to be the best response although engagement could very well be the better choice. Every situation is different. However, I wouldn't likely be standing still and returning fire if out in the open under any circumstances.

[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p4KXNdyH_LY&ebc=ANyPxKqqxLC5Jfx3TnrUYmDXFB3d9Yewnq_Knj1oOyKr2r1ZXE7zNx6D3fmRvrM-YK4JHdvJWhlgBbGKOuTlkL0gPuO9eUaoqA[/ame]

 

[cmort666]

Much depends on the specific scenario and distance from the shooter(s), but fleeing is generally going to be the best response although engagement could very well be the better choice. Every situation is different. However, I wouldn't likely be standing still and returning fire if out in the open under any circumstances.

Along with the fact that nobody can outrun even a CB Cap, the Army taught me about concealment, cover and the difference between them. It also taught me, whenever possible, to fire from a supported position.

 

[Ozark Marine]

They don't have the 2nd Amendment in France.
(In response to Megan Kelly's Navy Seal's interview.)

 

[Donn]

What loads should I be using in my snubby if the bad guys commandeer an M1 Abrams tank and attack the mall while I'm there? Seriously, these "what if" scenarios are getting way out of hand. The cold, hard fact is, Mr. Terrorist will, in all likelihood, be equipped with a select fire AK-47, loaded with 7.62x39 steel core ammo that will penetrate the wall or car door you're hiding behind and stitch you with alacrity before you can even think of returning fire. Your best bet? Get you and yours as far away as possible, if possible. Let those better trained and equipped deal with the bad guys.

 

[therewolf]

Who wants to get shot at? Run away.

My problem with this is, when I turn tail and run, what's to stop those

chowderheads from shooting me in the butt? So I just leave, and when

suburban mama with her 2 kids and infant are the next folks to arrive

on the scene, what happens then?

 

[shouldazagged]

What if there were no hypothetical questions?

I fail to see how I would prepare differently for the minuscule likelihood of encountering terrorists with AK's, explosive vests and body armor than I would for any threat.

Alert situational awareness, a gun I can shoot,, a cell phone, a one-hand-opening knife, and a flashlight after dark.

The chances of my needing my gun to defend against some domestic punk are remote, fortunately. The odds against my encountering heavily-armed terrorists are truly enormous.

I'll stay prepared, and if possible beat feet to cover and call 911.

 

[cmort666]

The cold, hard fact is, Mr. Terrorist will, in all likelihood, be equipped with a select fire AK-47, loaded with 7.62x39 steel core ammo that will penetrate the wall or car door you're hiding behind and stitch you with alacrity before you can even think of returning fire.

That sounds like the idiot pol's claim in words to the effect of, "Three rounds from this gun could kill EVERYBODY in this room."

Kalashnikovs aren't Martian death rays. They're just firearms of middling accuracy, usually wielded by not the best marksmen in the world.

Your best bet? Get you and yours as far away as possible, if possible. Let those better trained and equipped deal with the bad guys.

If I have the ability to resist, my best bet is never to turn my unarmored back to somebody looking for easy targets.

 

[Arik]

What loads should I be using in my snubby if the bad guys commandeer an M1 Abrams tank and attack the mall while I'm there? Seriously, these "what if" scenarios are getting way out of hand. The cold, hard fact is, Mr. Terrorist will, in all likelihood, be equipped with a select fire AK-47, loaded with 7.62x39 steel core ammo that will penetrate the wall or car door you're hiding behind and stitch you with alacrity before you can even think returning fire. Your best bet? Get you and yours as far away as possible, if possible. Let those better trained and equipped deal with the bad guys.

Getting a select fire AK in the US is easier said than done. They come up for sale occasionally, from someone's collection, and often go for north of $20k. Converting one is by no means rocket science but you'd need access to certain parts which are hard to find and machines to do some work. It's not plug and play. Much easier to just buy a $500 semi auto and pull the trigger very fast a lot of times

Steel core ammo has not been imported in over 20 years. Not something you can just go and buy at your local LGS. You may find some on GB at about a $1/round. Any bullet moving at over 2000fps will penetrate multiple car doors, be it steel core or lead/copper fmj. Makes no difference. A 55gr 5.56 will do the same, so will a 30-30 or any other rifle round or a fast moving handgun caliber

 

[jimmyj]

Discussions such as this reminds me of a agency head I worked under.
After the Combine (sic?) Incident He came up with a "Plan" for our agency.
Active School Shooting:
1. respond to the scene
2. set up a outer perimeter
3. wait for the county swat team
I told my supervisor:
a. with active shooting going on in a school, I was going in immediately and -------- the county swat team who might be on a previous call.
b. what brain trust hired this idiot from Howard County Maryland ?
c. I finally made Sergeant under this "Idiot" and his replacement promoted me to Captain. (Patrol Supervisor of course, cause real cops patrol the streets)

 

[cmort666]

Getting a select fire AK in the US is easier said than done. They come up for sale occasionally, from someone's collection, and often go for north of $20k. Converting one is by no means rocket science but you'd need access to certain parts which are hard to find and machines to do some work. It's not plug and play. Much easier to just buy a $500 semi auto and pull the trigger very fast a lot of times

Steel core ammo has not been imported in over 20 years. Not something you can just go and buy at your local LGS. You may find some on GB at about a $1/round. Any bullet moving at over 2000fps will penetrate multiple car doors, be it steel core or lead/copper fmj. Makes no difference. A 55gr 5.56 will do the same, so will a 30-30 or any other rifle round or a fast moving handgun caliber

I think that his premise (not an entirely unreasonable one) is that the domestic market is largely irrelevant. If they can sneak entire human beings in, sneaking their weapons and ammunition (as well as drugs for raising operating funds) in as well really isn't a big deal.

It's after that that he goes off the rails. Neither an AKM nor a Winchester 94 is a magic death ray. That being the case, it makes literally NO sense for an armed person to play to the STRENGTHS of a rifle armed opponent by creating distance and exposing ones back.

In a mass shooting, the BEST chance for survival by an ARMED person is to CHARGE the enemy, using intermediate cover and concealment to position oneself for the final assault.

Of course most of this "run away! (even though you're armed)" nonsense is premised on the fantasy that the police are going to show up in their TARDIS and protect you as an individual, and keep doing it over and over until no innocent people get killed. I just keep asking them, "How'd that work out in Paris?" Hell, how'd it work out at Virginia Tech?

The police aren't there to protect me from a guy with a knife at the ATM. Why on earth should I think they're going to protect me from a guy with a Kalashnikov? On a good day, response time here is in the 10-20 minute range. How many magazine changes for the killers is that? And that assumes a SINGLE attack site.

I'm willing to sacrifice my life to stop these animals. I wouldn't sacrifice a busted popsicle stick to protect somebody's narrative.

 

[GatorFarmer]

The .416 Rigby, or something like it, is your friend. Dangerous game rifles firing solid bullets machined from solid brass, steel core, tungsten carbide et al will crack and penetrate many rifle plates in armor. If you worry about it, put one in the trunk. They make good sasquatch rifles, which you are as likely to come across as an armor clad Jihadi. Perhaps more so here in Wyoming.

Otherwise, AP ammo for handguns, and certain rifle calibers that can be used in handguns, is restricted in the United States. You can try your luck with the .45 Super, .500 mag or other exotics, but in general not much in the way of handguns will reliably penetrate soft armor, let alone a rifle plate.

The FN 5.7 may be an exception, but only with ammunition sold only to LE and govt.

Anecdotally, a Glock 20 converted to 9x25mm Dillon could penetrate the circa 2004 standard IIIa vests, but since then the newer standards call for being able to stop higher velocity rounds.

Note that I wore concealable armor every day for years. It is not bulky if good quality and properly fit, not does it impede mobility. I have some experience with more...overt...armor proof against rifle rounds. The steel plate sort if heavy, but if you are fit and have trained with it, you can do all sorts of things while wearing armor.

Btw, even a Russian steel helmet left over from WW2 stands a good chance of stopping handgun rounds...and many military style armor systems shield the crotch/pelvis.

 

[cmort666]

The .416 Rigby, or something like it, is your friend. Dangerous game rifles firing solid bullets machined from solid brass, steel core, tungsten carbide et al will crack and penetrate many rifle plates in armor. If you worry about it, put one in the trunk. They make good sasquatch rifles, which you are as likely to come across as an armor clad Jihadi. Perhaps more so here in Wyoming.

I was always puzzled by the behavior of the cops during the West Hollywood bank robbery shoot out.

They seemed fixated on acquiring AR-15s from a local gun shop, when heavy caliber bolt actions would probably have done as well or better for them. I suspect that a couple of shots from a 7mm Rem Mag would have ended things a lot quicker than a couple of magazines of 5.56mm.