Clint Smith article

[Photog]

Don't know if many of you read it, but was at the local bookstore the other night and was looking through the latest issue of American Handgunner. Clint Smith had an article in which he stated that a double action revolver should never be fired in single action mode. I am not a big Clint Smith fan, but I thought this article was pretty bad.
I have hunted for many years with a M29 and have never taken any of the game I shot in double action mode. I have also used a M24 and M25-2 for some bullseye competition as well as watched others, and never seen it done double action.
When Smith & Wesson reintroduced the 4" 44 Special fixed sight revolver several years ago, I had the chance to talk to Mr. Smith at a large show. The gun pictured in his article on it was a non lock gun. I asked him if that configuration was going to be available to the general public and he replied in a very condescending tone that most shooters are not safe enough without the internal lock on the gun. I won't rehash the lock vs. no lock debate, but I found his attitude towards the average shooter, as he called them, to be very poor.
If you are a big Clint Smith fan, I don't mean to insult you, but just wanted to give my opinion on what he said. Double action revolvers have been around for over 150 years, and a majority of them function both DA/SA. I would think by now, if they are as unsafe as he states in his article, that the DA/SA format would have gone by the wayside many decades ago.
Unfortunately, I believe he is using the unsafe practices of some shooters to lay blame on the gun, instead of where it belongs. In my 50 yrs of shooting, I have never seen a gun (within specs, not messed with) discharge unless the trigger was pulled. Doesn't matter if it was SA, DA, DA/SA, semi or full auto, it is the person behind the gun, and not the gun that you nto worry about. If you read this article, I don't think he has quite figured that out yet.

 

[DR505]

I don't think he was referring to hunting situations...only self-defense situations. His contention was that a trigger might be inadvertently (and inappropriately) pressed in SA mode by a shooter filled with adrenaline and in a bad situation.

I don't know Mr. Smith, but I enjoy his writing.

FWIW - Many folks advocate configuring you self-defense revolver to fire in DA only mode.

 

[perrazi]

read this and didn't agree with it either. most people can't shoot dbl. action worth a hoot and there are times you need the accuracy of single action fire.

 

[feralmerril]

I would guess that I have shot my DA revolvers 90% of the time in single action mode. About the only times I shot da was at my requals on the job. Perhaps he is comeing as said, from a defense only standpoint shooting. I can see the point. As a old leo or whatever it would stop some accidental shootings. Johnnie cochran defense attorny got his start in 1966 on the deadwhiler case. He was speeding his wife to the hospital to have a baby in los angeles. The police dept was still useing DA revolvers back then. He was stopped for speeding. The cop cocked his smith right in his face. Somehow deadwhilers foot slipped off the clutch or for whatever reason the car lurched forward, the door frame hit the officers arm, gun went off killing deadwhyler. The los angeles pd had all the revolvers smithed to fire DA only. That was just before they then went to autos anyway. I suspect this to be the very reason of clint smiths thinking. I would bet if he hunts even he would use his DA revolver single action.
With me, I started out with a single action ruger. Shooting single action for me is still far more natural than double action with even haveing to requal shooting DA for 35 years!
Kind of a spinoff on this subject is where range masters would check your guns for "push off". That is where the hammer can be pushed off to fall without the trigger being pulled. I once had a rangemaster check a old model S&W 357 I had (pre model 27) and it did it. He wouldnt let me use that gun to qualify with.
Now it is beyound me why someone would find the need to cock a DA revolver on someone you are close enough to touch or spit on! Yes, I suppose some cowboy might cock the gun for more dramatic effect to get the subject`s astute attention.
Shootings Recall Dangers of Traffic Stops - Los Angeles Times

 

[Vulcan Bob]

I guess the measure of someone is how much you agree with them. Now in this case I do agree with him for myself only. Most all my double action revolvers have never been fired single action and I save that for the long tom barreled guns at fifty yards or more. Everyone has their own comfort zone when shooting and everyone has their own style of shooting. What works for me may not be the best thing for you and I do not throw stones unless it's an unsafe shooting practice and I'm in the danger zone at the time.

 

[Tom K]

Yeah, I read it and it was a badly written article. Clint said that it fries him every time he sees someone cock the hammer on a DA gun, then describes how to let the hammer down and says to "...never cock it again!" He also said that you can shoot just as accurately double action as you can single action. Maybe he can - I'd wager that 99.99% of the gun-shooting population can't.

If he had put some qualifiers in there about "in a self-defense situation" or something like that it might've made sense, but he said nothing like that. Apparently S&W, Colt, Ruger, etc. have been doing it wrong all these years by making revolvers that can be cocked single action.

 

[feralmerril]

I have owned .44 mags in model 29s. But really, why would someone chose a DA over a SA ruger in .44 mag for hunting? You dont need a DA to hunt with and on the other hand you dont need to reload fast when hunting.
Most people shoot their DA SA if they have the time and want to shoot precisely. The big advantage to a DA has always been that they are faster reloading for defendsive purposes. To carry this even farther, for a defensive gun, why carry a .44 mag to start with? They are heavier, more bulky to pack and supposedly the best "killer" statisticly is claimed to be the .357. A model 66 or 19 is lighter and more pleasant to pack than a 27. Just thinking with my fingers here. Dont matter I got em all anyway.
What could slow me up in a emergency is trying to figure out what gun to grab!
Clint HAS to be comeing from a defensive use only background that overides us plinkers and hunters. I think his theory gets into muscle memory in panic situations etc. I plan on continueing shooting SA and giving him fits. I would abide by his rules if he was my rangemaster and I was requalifing for my job.

 

[ohiobuckeye]

For defensive purposes, Smith's opinion of DA/SA use is probably good advice, but not a universal axiom for all handgun use. As far as his opinion of the "average shooter", he may well be pretty accurate there, also. Once outside our typical circle of folks who shoot on a regular basis and bother to learn how to shoot correctly, there are some real scatterbrains on the loose. Smith probably sees a long parade of people signing up for his classes that have no idea how to properly use a handgun but think they do, so he gets to see more of the scary side of "average shooters", from among the general population, than those of us who mostly hang out with other gun nuts like ourselves . Take a trip to a free public shooting range, in this neck of the woods on a weekend, and a few minutes observation will probably put you in full agreement with Smith.... No joke...too many men think they are John Wayne the first time they lay hands on a gun and that it just "comes natural" to all males....and it does not.

 

[finesse_r]

FWIW - Many folks advocate configuring you self-defense revolver to fire in DA only mode.

Most folks don't advocate configuring a self-defense revolver to fire in DA only mode. If you don't believe this check the resale values on identical guns in DA/SA and in DAO. Those in DAO invariably sell for less as there is less demand for such neutered handguns.

I read the liberal hype on these DAO guns and I tried them in semi-autos 3953 and 3953TSW and in revolvers M64. I could find no reason what-so-ever to continue using them over comparable SA/DA handguns.

The idea that there is no situation in which it is advantageous to use the single action of a SA/DA revolver is absurd. The weight of the trigger pull is the single most critical factor in accuracy with any handgun. To say you "never" use the single action function is to say you never have need for a very accurate shot.

The problem with SA/DA is not in the gun, but in the shooter putting their finger on the trigger before they are ready to fire. This is simply poor training, not some malfunction of the gun. One of the greatest problems in this nation is other people trying to control our actions through laws, regulations, or policy. It was the primary cause of the civil war and it is the major cause of the on-going conflict among our citizens. Police departments and DAO advocates try to make certain people don't cock a pistol and put their finger on the trigger by creating and then imposing a DAO gun on officers and as many civilians as possible rather than by proper training. It is just one more subtle example of control and I don't like it one bit.

I used to carry third generation S&W semi-autos so I did not worry much about all this whoopla about double action only guns, but the last year I have returned to carrying a revolver and I would carry a SAO before I would carry a DAO revolver. But in reality I carry a variety of SA/DA revolvers from a Ruger Speed Six to a S&W M625, M624, or M696. I practice shooting both single action and double action.

My advice is to resist and refrain from the DAO revolvers and semi-autoloaders, and if you choose to carry a SA/DA revolver learn to fire in both SA and DA to get the full use from that gun.

 

[mg357]

I read the article written by Mr. Smith and I agree with him. In a self defense situation when your full of adrenaline and your heart is racing and your scared it is very unsafe to cock the hammer on a double action revolver.

 

[feralmerril]

I wont say who but I came close to getting shot by a old tv series actor you all would know. A close friend of mine brought him to my house along with a friend of his. Both were about 20 years old at the time, close to 40 years ago. We all went out shooting. I guess it was the first time both were out shooting. I had a model 62 winchester he was shooting. He turned around to say or ask me something, the gun was cocked and the muzzel about six inchs from my gut. His uncle bellered, and for a millisecound I was afraid that might scare him into jerking the trigger. Anyway the guys were real nice and other than that we had a nice day together. I only seen him that one time and I see he is right here in town right now for a stage play for the next week or so. I am tempted to go and see if he reconise`s me or remembers the incident.

 

[Dirty Dan]

If the revolver were intended to be shot DA only, the manufacturer would have simply modified the hammer to preclude SA fire. I am a hunter, and like the gentleman above, have never harvested a deer in DA. Combat shooting: When I returned from the service, I went into LE. The first time we all went to the range, the Range Master, gave us our instructions on how to fire each CCP battery. I told the Range Master, that with the exception of military, I was trained with a SSA, by my father and, yes, could function the Model 28 in DA, but felt I was sacrificing accuracy. I was told there was no way I could complete the course, as I could not keep pace with the firing sequence(s), and accompanying reload requirements. I was authorized to shoot this one time, in SA, and after I failed to qualify, would be required to fire the course DA only..I shot a perfect 300, and the Range Master never mentioned it again...Yes, I did qualify in DA, but to this day feel like I am sacrificing accuracy, for the sake of speed. My dad said the first shot, was the only one I needed! Yes, sadly had occasion to draw my service revolver several times in my career, but thank God, did not have to use that deadly force..Yes, I can recall the first time, had a guy with a double barrel twelve gauge attempt to shoot me at 20 yards. I used the patrol car drivers door, as a rest and hammered my weapon, gave instructions to the assailant to drop the shotgun, or I would kill him..He complied..So much for never using SA in a combat situation. Got to work on brevity!!!Sorry.

 

[DR505]

I carry a variety of firearms...but my favorite for self-defense is a 1911 in .45 ACP, a single action firearm.

Go with what works for you. Writers have to write something, and if it's controversial, it gets people talking (like we are) so more people will tune in.

 

[A10]

Everything I've read by Clint has had its good points, and that is what I try to focus on. As far as the DAO question goes, I carry a 442 and for its intended purpose DAO works. I do not carry DAO as a primary gun in the woods though. SA is appropriate for taking game, as accuracy is king in that situation. I have been shooting for a long time and practice DA with my revolvers at the range. I am accurate DA, but more accurate SA.

 

[H Richard]

I believe Clint views things from "only" a defensive viewpoint. His thinking is very narrow minded and does not take into consideration hunting, or competition shooting. And, if his writing is viewed from that aspect it may make more sense.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

I like my self defense weapons ot give me the choice of firing single action if I so choose. When the perp is running away fast as he can after I have fired double action and missed the first shot, I want to be able to deliberately cock the gun and take careful aim at the largest part of his back for the second shot.
Oh and I believe Clint quit playing on the forum after he got such a tough time from various members regarding his views on the lock and how none of us liked "his" .44 fighting gun because it had the lock whilst the one Smith made up for him did not have it. I believe he called us all **** (rhymes with bird) suckers. Well, in my book he is a poo poo head.

 

[feralmerril]

The officer in the deadwyler case had cocked his revolver and had it in the car, must have had it almost pressing the muzzel in deadwylers ear and cocked it for dramatic effect! I dont belive the door jam bumping his arm could cause you to shoot the gun double action, single action, hell yes!
A very similar event happened to me many years ago but I didnt have a gun. Got to tell this one on myself. Two friends showed up by my house and we were going shooting together. I had a old station wagon and was low on gas. I was trying to make it to a station but ran out of gas a couple blocks after leaving the house. I said I will walk back and get a gas can I had at the house. On the way I seen a event. A VW with a bunch of kids in it had pulled over (faceing the wrong direction), the driver had got out and was beating on a kid! The three others were just sitting in the car. As I walked close the driver let him go, got in and took off. The kid took off he was beating on. It didnt stop there. The driver went up the street, made a U turn, and bounced over about three driveways trying to hit the kid who dodged to the side! The driver had to slow up right in front of me, started to make a U turn again probley to make another run at the kid. He was driving a old beatle with the window down. I bellered STOP! He did, and I reached in and grabbed his shirt or coat front with both hands. What was I thinking? My plan was to drag him right through the window and I half did. I pulled him halfway through the window but I also pulled him off the clutch! The bug lurched forward, the door frame scraped my arm good! The shotgun passenger grabbed the wheel, my stetson fell on the roof of the car and the two back seat youths were giving me the fingers as they took off. I retrieved my hat, went another block to the house, got my gas, walked back to my buddys and just said , dont ask!

 

[Gunhacker]

I tend to take his writings with a grain of salt... with lime and Tequila.

Just because his writing style might be "wanting", in that he fails to be detailed in his rationale, he's not out there in left field.

As previously mentioned, he's not the only one that has advocated not using SA mode in excitable SD moments... look back into the writings of Jordan, Skelton, etc. and you'll see references to the same.

I strongly feel that if you're going to own a DA revolver, you should train to shoot well in either mode, otherwise save some money and just go buy a Ruger SA Blackhawk.

 

[Ethang]

I must have missed the thread on Mr. Smith and the lock vs no lock revolvers. It would be very interesting to revisit it. I have never met the man but it seems to me his teachings are sound. I have not read the article, however there is times where a crisp single action defensive shot might very well be needed. I would not go so far as to ever say that it should never be employed.

I might just have to buy that magazine to read it and decide for myself, but isn't that the point of having gun writers write articles?

 

[jframe]

I like my self defense weapons ot give me the choice of firing single action if I so choose. When the perp is running away fast as he can after I have fired double action and missed the first shot, I want to be able to deliberately cock the gun and take careful aim at the largest part of his back for the second shot.
Oh and I believe Clint quit playing on the forum after he got such a tough time from various members regarding his views on the lock and how none of us liked "his" .44 fighting gun because it had the lock whilst the one Smith made up for him did not have it. I believe he called us all **** (rhymes with bird) suckers. Well, in my book he is a poo poo head.

I remember that thread, now, Caje! Personally, I thought he was a jerk before that thread even started. For some reason, his articles have always struck me as condescending. Not everyone can afford to go to a fancy shooting school, and a lot of us good ole boys down South have a better sense of self defense tactics than any of Smith's classes could teach. I'm not saying the guy isn't good, I figure he is, but if you don't think he's good, I bet you could just ask him, and he'd tell you how good he is.

 

[Grayfox]

Having never found myself in a real self defense situation, I can't really say if DA only is the right way to go.
However, I have shot revolvers many times in IDPA. For most of it I do shoot DA. However, when they throw in targets out at 20 yards or more, I find myself automatically cocking the hammer and squeezing off precise shots.
I see no reason to handicap myself with DA only all the time.

 

[Kanewpadle]

If you can't hit your target effectively at self defense range in DA, you need more practice. Once upon a time it was required to be able to hit your target effectively at ranges greater than 25 yards while shooing in DAO.

Walking around with a revolver cocked is like walking around with a 1911 cocked but not locked. It ain't safe.

 

[Big Cholla]

I remember that thread, now, Caje! Personally, I thought he was a jerk before that thread even started. For some reason, his articles have always struck me as condescending. Not everyone can afford to go to a fancy shooting school, and a lot of us good ole boys down South have a better sense of self defense tactics than any of Smith's classes could teach. I'm not saying the guy isn't good, I figure he is, but if you don't think he's good, I bet you could just ask him, and he'd tell you how good he is.

With all due respect,Sir; IMHO you couldn't be more wrong about Clint Smith. I know him well enough that I would venture a guess that his reply to your question to him would be, "Good? No, compared to many I know, I'm not very good, but on the other hand, I'm good enough to have stayed alive when it counted." Clint is a much decorated combat marine.

Clint teaches self-defense skills while using firearms and the brain. He also writes from that position. I wouldn't be highly surprised that even you would benefit from taking one of his courses.

To address the SA vs. DA issue, I will say that when minimizing the time being taken to shoot, I would never use the SA mode, but when time is not an issue, I would and have taken long initial shots using the SA mode. Just remember; a gunfight at short distances is exactly when one uses every thing possible to minimize the amount of time that one's opponents have to shoot while maximizing the amount of time that one has to shoot at the opponents. Using DA only in a close quarters gunfight is just one of those things to do that is a given.

As a former firearms/tactics instructor, I attended several of Clint Smith's courses. I took something away from everyone of those courses and then tried my best to pass those somethings along to both my LEO students and my civilian students. ............... Big Cholla

 

[Bluecoat76]

I also was shocked and disappointed in the article. I couldn't believe it. This one slipped by the Editor who was asleep at the switch. It sounds like someone still shaking from a recent 'AD'. What a unprofessional/unsafe blurb this was coming from a great magazine. Coming from the 'common sense' generation I'm shaking my head.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

I couldn't care less what Clint Smith say's or writes. And I do not understand why anyone else would? Paper does not refuse ink. I thought the article was ridiculously absurd. Maybe it was edited for size considerations.....he seems to have a big, well you know...ego.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[YogiBear]

Aloha,

I shoot all my revolvers DA all the time.

SA shooting is rare for me, except when using a SA firearm.

I guess it's a habit I got into when shooting IPSC years ago.

When I shoot a Beretta, the first shot is always DA.

I think new shooters today have no idea how to shoot DA.

When I shoot my 27-2 DA with magnum loads, I usually end up being the

only person shooting. All the younger shooters stop shooting their semis

and end up watching me roll thru 3 cylinders of magnums.

More fun when I use my M57 or 58 with magnum loads DA.

Nothing like the Big Dog Barking.

 

[finesse_r]

If you can't hit your target effectively at self defense range in DA, you need more practice. Once upon a time it was required to be able to hit your target effectively at ranges greater than 25 yards while shooing in DAO.

Walking around with a revolver cocked is like walking around with a 1911 cocked but not locked. It ain't safe.

If you can't keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot you need more practice.

 

[Joe Kent]

finesse, I would agree with you, but the advantage of the 1911 allows you to easily train and use the thumb safety. That is why it and the Browning P35 are two of my most favorite auto's. As far as Clint Smith's article I do agree that Combat use and training should be DA ,both for speed and safety against any accidental discharge. In my humble opinion ,and the way I train ,that is the best, but as I have said before, it's your and only your butt on the line in both the combat situation and the court room and grandjury after the fact. Do what you can to best protect your life, freedom and assets. All my best, Joe.

 

[handejector]

Has anyone else ever had the pleasure of being handed a cocked and loaded(with magnums) 2-1/2" Mod 19 in the wee hours, in dim light, by a nervous, shaking old lady who "heard a noise", but does NOT know how to UNcock a loaded gun?

Try it sometime.
It is quite exhilarating.

 

[Biginge]

Not going to enter the debate here, but is it safer to uncock a Ruger Blackhawk (that for whatever reason has been cocked) than a S&W 29 (that has for whatever reason has been cocked)? Is one to believe that you should never have to "uncock" a single action revolver after it was cocked? If this is true then single action revolvers must be unsafe. Enlighten me here. I have shot, and am a certified Range Officer, and in competition, many times have been handed a cocked SA on a loaded round that was experiencing a "problem" , the shooter was injured, etc. I see no difference in a cocked SA vs. DA. I am not advocating cocking either unless you are ready to fire downrange. The "don't ever cock it again" statement would lend itself to believe SA is unsafe because of the nature of the beast , if said statement is true. Just sayin------