Collector vs. Owner

[jggaffney]

I recently picked up a 1917 Revolver, and traded posts with some people over in the Hand Ejectors forum. I said in one of my posts that I planned on sending the revolver out to get re-blued.

I got a response from a member who was trying to talk me out of refinishing the pistol. He said, "[M]y philosophy is that we are only caretakers of these fine old revolvers. We keep them in working order, keep them clean and try to preserve whatever the condition in which we recieved them. The problem with your approach is that there will be a new caretaker somewhere down the line and how many times have you read from a collector about a fine old S&W 'ruined' by refinishing - no matter how good a job was done?"

My position is that I want a shooter, not a collector's piece. The revolver is not so old that I have to keep it in a case - I want to take it out and play with it! I have several military rifles that I've bought from CMP and other places and, regardless of the shape that they're in when I get them, I restore them to the point that they make good shooters. I bought an Eddystone rifle that had a crummy barrel, but all of the numbers matched (from 1918). When CMP made replacement barrels available, I bought one and had my local gunsmith install it for me. I enjoy shooting a rifle just like the one my grandfather carried in World War 1. I also have a Garand and a Carbine, just like the ones my dad carried in World War 2. Both have been rebuilt so that they are fun to shoot.

IMO, preserving something as a collector's item places more value on what the pistol will be worth to the next owner, and overlooks the value and enjoyment that I might get from it. As long as the pistol is still safe to shoot, I say make it fun to shoot it.

Opinions?

 

[Kanewpadle]

I would say the decision is yours and yours alone.

I asked the same question about a 19-2 that my dad gave me for Christmas two years ago.

Most if not all advised against refinishing the gun and enjoy the "character" that my father gave it. I used to shoot it as a kid.

Yet you have no emotional attachment to your new gun. So I would do what I wanted to. People collect guns for differing reasons.

 

[4506517]

It is/they are your guns to do with what you please. There are as many different opinions as there are people on internet forums. Don't make the mistake most people do about other media forms: just because it is on tv or in print doesn't make it true.

For example, in my opinion the M&P is junk. I have been through several and still have to stake my life on this miserable thing. Most of these guys tell me I'm crazy, I don't know what I'm talking about, etc. I couldn't care less. Its my butt on the line not theirs.

Bottom line is, do what you want. People will never all agree with you. If you paid for them, do what you wish and don't worry about what the internet thinks.

 

[Qball]

I have to agree with every one els here, it's your gun.

I bet that who ever said that "thou shal not restore"
change a fender on his car and repaint it if in a fenderbender.
Bet you he don't save the original tires for the next generations

 

[oldman45]

A person only hurts the value of a gun if they plan on selling it in the future. If a person does not plan on selling the gun, then nothing he can do will hurt the value.

I own some guns that I will never shoot but maybe the person that buys them after I am dead will shoot them.

Personally, I usually will not buy a used gun that does not look at least 95% or better. During the times I did buy a well used gun, I got the wrong end of the deal. I will not buy a gun that has been modified, refinished or changed in any way.

 

[Revolver-time]

The older I get the more I believe that a gun's mission is to shoot. If I own it, I am going to shoot it. If it is of quality, I am sure that I will get out of it what I paid for it.

In my opinion, and it is only mine of course, a well used M1 that was surplus after doing duty in Europe is worth a bunch more than one that never was issued.

 

[GF]

Or you can look at it this way... a refinished gun make the rest worth more money.

You doin' "collectors" a favor!

GF

 

[Maximumbob54]

My rationale for keeping a gun as it is:

With each passing year there are fewer of these older guns in anything close to original condition. To me, it isn't so much a matter of "collecting" as it is "preserving". I can enjoy an old gun with light loads and lead bullets and not be wearing it out. I can keep that old gun in a manner that won’t eat the finish off the way storing it in a leather holster might wear the bluing. I can change out the original wood for an aftermarket for range time fun. While at the range, I can lay out an old towel or two on the range bench for padding. Old guns just weren’t made in the quantity that today’s guns are made so they are fading from view at a much higher rate.

My rationale for doing anything to a gun that can’t be put back to original configuration:

Bottom line, it’s your gun to do with as you please. But when you ask a question like refinishing an old gun and you post that on the internet… That’s like opening Pandora’s box of not knowing how crazy of an answer you are going to get. I can’t help but be curious if some people that post a question like that have some kind of guilt complex and are just looking for reassurance. I will admit that I have a few safe queen type guns that I don’t mess around with and I have a few that I have polished or otherwise modified. I make it a judgment call on what I would think I would want to see passed on to a future generation. My MIMlock 629 isn’t what I think of as a future ultra collector, but that is just my personal opinion. My blued steel frames and barrels with color case hardened forged parts kind of guns that still have good condition wood are guns I tend to baby. And the older they are then the more I tend to baby them. So I can’t say I’m serious about either direction, but I do tend to show some favor for older guns.

And besides all that, I still think of myself as more of an “accumulator” than anything else. I just buy what I can afford when I can afford to buy it.

 

[walnutred]

It’s curious to me that the idea to leave a firearm finish untouched seems to be an American concept. Back when the British were allowed to own firearms sending your firearm back to the factory for a going over seemed to be an accepted ritual. Ironically for the most part here we are not talking about firearms that were custom built or highly embellished by the factory. We are talking about items that were mass produced in many cases by the thousands.

 

[Dr.-d]

It's your gun, do what you want to it. However I agree most of the time with the purists, leave it alone. Unless it's not a real desireable piece and it's in so bad a shape that a proper restoration at that point wouldn't hurt it much. Just remember that if you reblue, modify or change something on an original collectible gun you will always be known as Bubba by some of those collectors.

 

[handejector]

My position is that I want a shooter, not a collector's piece.

Will a refinish make it shoot better?

As long as the pistol is still safe to shoot, I say make it fun to shoot it.

Opinions?

So, we arrive at the real objective-
to be fun for you, the gun has to look good.
Nothing wrong with that. However, there is a flaw in the logic- even if done by a master, a refinished gun will never look as "good" to many observers as an orig finish gun. Most will be very polite and say it looks good, or say nothing, when, in fact, they prefer an 80% orig finish to a refinish.

Looking at the cold, hard, financial facts, there is another flaw- you are making a rather simple task more difficult than it needs to be.
To wit:
If you want a nice gun, buy a nice gun and you are done. Objective accomplished. Done. No chance of disappointment. You found a pretty gun, and own it.

Going the refinish route-
$350(gun) + $250-350(refin) + freight + up to 18 mos= a gun "pretty (desirable) to some". And, it may even be a disappointment to YOU.

7 or 8 hundred will buy you a very pretty Mod 1917, but not a perfect one.

A subjective choice.

 

[Bell Charter Oak Holsters]

This subject of this thread must be among the top 5 threads ever discussed on the Forum. I don't believe more than a few months at most go by without it being rehashed over and over again. I suggest a poll be taken and posted as a "sticky" to benefit newcomers posing the question.

1. Refinish.
2. Do Not Refinish.
3. No Opinion, It's Your Gun Do As You Please.

Everybody's opinion matters, let's get a consensus and be done with it once and for all.

Cheers;
Lefty

 

[rburg]

There's one little problem in this discussion. The OP comes here to us and asks opinions on what he should do. Everyone understands its his gun to do with as he pleases. Its also his money to conserve or blow as he see's fit. Some courses of action will tend to conserve his assets better than others.

If he wants to blow his money on a refinish, few here would argue with him, instead we'd honor his freedom to do as he pleases. But then when he changes his mind and wants to sell his gun, he has no room to complain that he's got $800 in it and can't get it back. And that's really what we're talking about. The question most people ask is should they do something, and what will be the consequences.

There's little doubt that if you want a very pretty gun and to make the most of your money, the course Lee outlined above is the best. Just buy it the way you want it. You get to see up front what you're going to get. If you damage the finish in any way, the blame is only on your shoulders. If you elect to put it by your easy chair (I've got one there right now) and admire it every so often, it will serve its function.

The main expenses you will undertake is buying the gun, freight (lets not call next day service of $80 each way postage), and then of course the gunsmith's services. We pretty well know top rated workers don't earn McDonalds wages, and the old $200 for a refinish won't buy you much more than a fast food quality refinish. If you buy a dog of a gun, pay as much or more for the real cost of refinishing, and come out of it with a gun that looks like a refinish, good luck. You can still admire the gun if it pleases you. If the guy who did the work was a Doug Turnbull or Fords, you will probably have a beauty to look at. And the often quoted $300 won't even approach what you really paid, its more like $800 or so, plus the shipping.

So what many of us have done in our old age is watch others and the course of action they take. Many of us have even seen refinished guns that have worked their way through that finish, too. Some look like they may be on their 3rd. You can even buy one of those and give it another "coat of paint". But if your goal or type of service will add any kind of wear and tear, its the most economical for you to just buy one where that finish destroying activity won't make a hoot of difference.

We give that advice with good intentions, and to help the person asking go the best direction. If they ask us what they should do, almost everyone here tells the people its their gun and they can do as they please. But then we also tell them the truth, that some courses of action will lead them to a better economic conclusion than others. What I dont' understand is why someone would come here, ask a question, get honest answers, and then want to complain about it.

So the rules of life and economics are pretty well set. Refinishes almost never pay off when or if it comes time to sell. It only rewards you with a gun that you think looks nice. Other shooters and collectors almost never think a refinished gun looks nice if they can tell its been refinished. There is nothing wrong with a refinished gun. There is something wrong with you liking a poorly refinished one. You enjoyment is maybe misplaced. Just like we won't complain about you showing us your target with bullet holes all over. We will complain when you start telling us its good shooting.

And a big part of all this is knowing yourself and your habits. If your method of operation is to shoot a gun a lot, get it filthy, never or only rarely clean it, and leave it like that, you should only buy one already worn. Well worn guns often are the best shooters. No reason to put wear and tear on a nice gun. Its cheaper to shoot the worn one. Besides, they have character. Pristine guns are often nice to look at, but you'll get disapproving looks when you do anything that damages the finish.

So do as you please. If you've got the bucks to get a first rate refinish, then abuse it, don't think you're going to get any respect from us. We've already told you not to do it. If you get a 2nd rate refinish, where the screws are dished, pins polished off, and roll stamps thinned, don't expect anyone here or who collects to show you great respect for the wonderful job you had done. But most collectors and shooters will agree that a well worn gun that is continuing to give that service is a good idea. You can have as many bad ideas as you want or can afford. All your imaginary internet buddies can do is try to steer you in the right direction. We do that here.

 

[Gutpile Charlie]

Yes, it is yours and do as you wish, however, I do believe some firearms deserve to be left as they are.

I too am a collector of military firearms and would never think of "smithing" and M1 that I received from the DCM/DMC....unless....it was damaged and unusable. Yes, returning them to operating condition is the thing to do, however to just "Bubba" something because you own it unforgivable.

There are plenty of already crappped up firearms that one can practice his "gunsmithing" skills on, and in many cases, you just might improve it, or repair it....however....if it aint broke, don't fix it seems to be the golden rule to me.

An old S&W revolver with honest wear, should be left alone. One that looks like a boat anchor and that it had possible been run over by a train might profit from some "restoration."

 

[keith44spl]

What I want to know is why this tread don't have no pictures?

I've bought revolvers with the expressed idee of having them
engraved and re-finished to please myself.

I don't concern myself with future gains...Just my own selfish pleasure in ownin and using them, period.
Don't care what the current crop of collector or someone down the road thinks of it.

Some of you cowboys are too darn fond of your horses.

If I where in to collecting, I would purchase the highest
condition with the boxes and accessories, etc...
I could find in the particular specimen of desire.

I picked this one up sometime back...With thoughts of having it re-finished.
Did add the ivories, jest to suit myself.

But, after carryin and shootin 'er this summer, think I'll jest leave her be, fer now anyways.

3rd Model H.E. 44Spl.

Su Amigo,
Dave

 

[old bear]

To the O/P, it's your revolver to do with as you please. If it makes you happy to have it refinished by all means do so.

As for shooting "classic" revolvers, IMHO owing a gun, of any type, and not shooting it from time to time is like not having a special dance with a pretty girl, it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[bry@n]

I am new to revolvers but no guns. I have a few guns that are older and I like to keep that as is. I like the character that they have.

I have bought project guns to play around with and generally, I tend to use the project guns for the range etc..