Concealed Carry Comfort

[elm_creek_smith]

So those advocating smaller autos and wheel guns would have had to have been mighty good shots and hope they didn't miss and hope that their shots were on target where 1 or at the most 2 shots stopped each of the perps or they would find they were in serious trouble ..

I am a mighty good shot. I don't take my guns off when I'm home, other than my 4 inch S&W Model 686 duty revolver, and, when you shoot the first one through the door to doll rags, the second one will be less likely to want to follow him. The third/fourth/fifth will probably be headed in the other direction at that point.

 

[686-380]

I have seen that statement credited to Col. Jeff Cooper, and at the time it was made it was probably true. However, with the variety of guns (all sizes and weights) and holsters that have been introduced since that time, there is no reason you can't be BOTH comfortable and comforted while carrying.

My EDC is my Bodyguard .380, in an inexpensive pocket holster. When I feel vulnerable or just wanna CARRY, I wear my conceal-carry vest.

 

[Handgunner454]

386

I just purchased a Smith 386 Scandium with the 2 1/2" barrel. Looking for a holster that will ride high and be comfortable. Looking at belt slides and pancake. Don't think I want a thumb snap. Want a small profile.
Thanks in advance for any ideas out there
HANDGUNNER

 

[Archie]

I recall the quote about 'comforting, not comfortable' and recall Cooper saying it in an article. In the full context of that essay, he was saying 'comforting' as in a sense of freedom from danger was paramount and more important than physical 'comfort'. At least some of this comment was directed at those who carried rather small guns because they were 'comfortable and convenient'.

I have no doubt Cooper was as satisfied as any if the device and means of carry were comfortable as well. I don't think he had aspirations of being a Trappist Monk.

If one carries a sidearm as a defensive tool, it must be capable of defense. (He said, shocking no one - hopefully.)

I will not jump into the fray of "which" is 'best'. You're all big kids and get to make up your own mind. But I suggest one carry a sidearm big enough to be well used and stop an adversary - at least in the mind of the carrier. No one should be carrying a sidearm with the idea of "...never happen to me, makes no difference..." If that is true, that is, if one really believes that, one should not carry at all.

 

[revolver4954]

Thanks, CrazyPhil, for the post about comfortable concealed carry combos. You sure received lots of opinions. For IWB carry, I have Brommeland leather holsters both for my S&W model 640 J-Frames (Airweight and all-steel) and for my S&W 3913. Very comfortable and concealable with an untucked shirt. I carry these two combos in the appendix position and find carrying these more comfortable than my 9mm M&P in a belt holster on the hip. But, comfort is different for different folks ...

 

[QED]

While carrying any kind of a gun is better than not carrying at all, what kind of a gun is deemed sufficient depends on individual risk assessment and how "comforting" vs. how "comfortable" a suitable gun is. If risk assessment includes multiple armed adversaries, not to mention that they may be wearing soft armor, being "comfortable" with a "comforting" choice of a carry weapon is hardly likely. Fortunately, the probability of such scenarios is probably not greater than being run over at 3:32 a.m. by a 100 year-old lady on a motorcycle . Hence, "comforting" and "comfortable" carry choices can readily be realized by most of us.

 

[les.b]

Many of our Sheriffs and Police opposed it. They thought it will
be a problem. I'm all for the 2nd Amendment, but this might be
a little extreme. I guess we will know starting this coming Friday.

Phil:

We started the same thing here in West Virginia back in May. So far, a big nothing. I have heard no reports of any problems yet. I admit that I was sceptical at first, and there was a lot of out of state political pressure and big money being spent here in WV to stop the legislation from passing, and predictions of doom, but so far nothing. For us, at least, I think that pretty much everyone who wanted to carry a gun already had a permit. Partly because our permit is good in something like 38 other states, and out AG has worked tirelessly to sign reciprocity agreements with as many states as he could, so that is an attraction to get the permit.

Sorry for thread drift.

Edit: this thread reminds me of the old comparison of a firearm with a musical instrument. "Just because you own a piano doesn't make you a musician". Everyone understands that, but many seem to think that owning a handgun makes you a marksman.

Best Regards, Les

 

[inspector177]

My take on it is that a J-frame 38 or J-Magnum frame .357 is hard to beat for comfort with either a 2.125" or 3" barrel.

The overall "box" dimensions are misleading as the overall volume is quite small compared to a similar maximum dimensioned semi-auto pistol.

In a proper IWB holster a J-frame basically disappears and is comfortable to wear all day long.

----

I am less enamored with standard pressure .38 Special performance however and I am not aware of any standard pressure .38 Special load that will meet the FBI's penetration and expansion standards, particularly in the heavy clothing tests.

In contrast, I am aware of several .380 ACP loads (all based on the 90 gr XTP at 1000-1050 fps in a 3.5" to 3.9" barrel) that will meet the FBI standards. Those same loads will also come darn close in a 2.75" barrel, at around 975 fps, doing very well in bare gelatin, but only expanding about 50% of the time in the heavy clothing test.

In that regard, I'm more inclined to shoot a .380 ACP with a 90 gr XTP than I am a standard pressure .38.

That's where a .38 +P load is valuable. It adds enough velocity to give a short barred revolver the same performance as a standard pressure .38 in a 4" service revolver.

That said, I'm a big fan of the 3" Model 60 with a moderately warm loaded 125 gr hollow point at 1250 fps. It's a couple hundred fps past .38 +P performance, but still controllable and reasonably comfortable to shoot with decent grips.

IMHO most people do not carry a 380 w/ a 31/2" or longer barrel, they tend to carry one of the newer micro/mini pistols due to size and weight etc. That type of pistol usually has a very short barrel which has a big affect on performance. I'll take a standard 38 over a tiny 380 any day.

 

[indigo22]

Over the years I have learned that a stout belt and a solid holster makes a vast difference as to how comfortable a large handgun will feel while toting it around. In general my bigger handguns were reserved for hunting or taking a walk into the woods where I might encounter predators. One of them was a 4 5/8" Super Black Hawk that rode in a high ride pancake holster. Granted I had to wear a light jacket to conceal it but for the most part it went unnoticed because the butt was pulled in tight with the gun riding at 4 o'clock.
I've carried all sizes and shapes of guns 22's, 380, 357, 44, 45 (mix of autos and revolvers). Most of my time I had carried a 22 of some sort and never felt under gunned. At present it is a LCP in a wallet holster. I've found this to be the easiest and most consistent carry method to date. If my pants are on I'm carrying. Comfort wise it isn't any larger than my wallet in the other pocket, so I've gotten attuned to it being there, ya that's comforting. No other gun or method has been easier aside from dropping a micro mini into my front pocket... of which I've wised up to that not being the best way to carry. I never had a mishap... but at one point it just dawned on me. Safety first... just saying that idea didn't last long.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

Here's something that, given recent events, I think needs to factor into a considered carry choice: capacity and reload speed.

A 5-shot revolver is IDEAL for arms-length confrontations with single armed aggressor. It is NOT, however, ideal for having to engage single or multiple terrorists armed with long guns who will not break off the attack after being met with force, but will stick around and engage YOUR return fire.

I LOVE wheelguns. But the fact remains, armed encounters these days seem to hold the possibility of multiple assailants armed with hi-cap pistols or long guns, and who will engage you once you return fire. A 5 or even 6 or 7 shot revolver is not longer ideal.

I personally think a commander sized 1911 is a MINIMUM for being considered prepared. A single stack 9mm will also work, with 8+1 and a quicker reload.

This is a newer reality---carry the wheelguns, but as a back up to the auto loader.

Just my two cents.

Sorry to be the floating object in the punchbowl, but as a civilian, your 5 shot revolver is plenty, and more likely to be with you when you need it. "Multiple assailants with high-cap pistols"? Don't get involved in the illegal drug trade in bad areas and you won't be seeing that. Typical criminal attacks are quick and brutal and the first one to make a hit on his opponent will prevail. If you shoot the perp who is confronting you, he will more than likely turn tail and be running, not re-enacting a movie scene extended shootout. Crooks don't like to be shot, with anything.

As far as extreme situations go, as Average Joe, if you survive the initial terrorist attack your only viable strategy is quickly to gather up your loved ones and GTFO. Be smart. If you think you will stick around with the idea of engaging "multiple terrorists armed with long guns", you and your family will be made mincemeat of in short order, by explosives or shooting, regardless of what firearm you are carrying. If during your escape if you encounter a terrorist face to face, your 5-shot is adequate for the task.

Both scenarios assume that you have practiced reguarly with your firearm, whatever that may be. 1911, polygun, 500 Magnum, 5-shot... whatever gives you confidence. But keep in mind that the so-called "Gurus" mentioned drew their claimed experience from military service. You are not fighting a war with 8-2000 fellow armed and trained men by your side, backed by armor, airpower and crew-served weapons. You are one person trying to survive a very bad day. Understand the difference, and prepare accordingly. Be safe.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

The last 2 home invasions in my area consisted of multiple perps kicking in the door and beating or shooting the occupant and robing or stealing items from the home ..

One man was beaten then shot and killed 3-4 perps in that one .. the other happened to a woman where she was threated and beaten and a shot was fired by her head while her 2 small children clinged to her legs they believe there were 3 people in that .. none have been apprehended ..

So those advocating smaller autos and wheel guns would have had to have been mighty good shots and hope they didn't miss and hope that their shots were on target where 1 or at the most 2 shots stopped each of the perps or they would find they were in serious trouble ..

That's why I carry a pistol that carry's 12+1 and that ever present extra magazine of at least that many or even more ..

You can carry a medium size carry auto pistol that holds 12 or more rounds very comfortable .. All you have to do is get a quality holsters ..
Those who say there aren't any haven't tried to find one that fits their build and method of carry !!

You are comparing apples and oranges. The discussion here is CCW outside the home. Home defense is a whole other topic and much it involves things that PREVENT such an attack, like good doors and locks, outdoor lighting, fences, gates, alarms, cameras... whatever your budget or tastes allow. A dog makes a nice companion and an excellent early warning system. While reading a magazine inside the comfort of your home, there are plenty of places to keep a far more capable rifle or shotgun for your defense, or a large big calibre and/or hicap pistol.

All of which is not applicable to you at shopmart on a 85 F. or 15 F. day or evening. Street crooks generally don't walk around in gangs - they attract the attention of the police that way. If you find yourself in such an area - leave immediately as you obviously got misdirected somewhere and are in the wrong neighborhood. The usual street thug is a solo artist, perhaps with a lookout to assist. The .38 or .380 will be fine, if you are.

BTW... since you brought up home invasions. Yes they are often perpetrated by a gang of criminals - that's why it's called an "invasion". However the majority of them involve targeted attacks by one set of crooks invading another crook's "crib". Yes, perps have women and children at home too. If you are not a drug dealer or money launderer or stolen goods fence... your chances of being home invaded just dropped dramatically.

Further, if you have a regular job and a regular life - and are not known within the community as having a juicy cash business or deal in diamonds, or are the president or principal of a bank or otherwise wealthy - your chances of being home invaded just dropped even further, to the point of being negligible.

Having said that... perps don't want to get shot. If the other elements of home defense have been properly prepared, and you have a rehearsed and practiced plan, you will have ample time to arm yourself with a firearm of powerful dimensions, and take appropriate self-defense action against Perp #1. Unless you are a special individual who has been targeted for assasination, Perps #2 through Infinity will be fleeing with great haste, after witnessing the results on Perp #1. Of course YMMV, but that is the general way things tend to go down.

Be safe.

 

[Rastoff]

"Multiple assailants with high-cap pistols"? Don't get involved in the illegal drug trade in bad areas and you won't be seeing that.

Except in this day, they are coming to us.

 

[Model 15-4ever]

...
I am less enamored with standard pressure .38 Special performance however and I am not aware of any standard pressure .38 Special load that will meet the FBI's penetration and expansion standards, particularly in the heavy clothing tests.

In contrast, I am aware of several .380 ACP loads (all based on the 90 gr XTP at 1000-1050 fps in a 3.5" to 3.9" barrel) that will meet the FBI standards. ...

I like .380 pistols for a variety of reasons and prefer them to the 5-shot .38 Special for what they are. However, while I'm not tyring to start an endess ballistic argument, there is no question that the .38 Special has somewhat superior terminal performance to the .380 in the FBI test protocol.

For starters, there are no "FBI expansion standards". None. The FBI only has penetration standards, being 12" minimum and 18" desirable maximum. Within that range, bullets are compared according to final expanded diameter. "Temporary wound cavity" is not a considered factor in FBI terminal ballistic testing of handgun rounds.

There are a slew of standard pressure 38 Special rounds that will easily make those penetration standards: 158-200 grain RNL or SWC, 148 grain WC target loads, 130 grain FMJ, Hornady 158 XTP, and others. The later actually expands out of a 2" barrel. All non-+P.

.380 ACP loads... most of the JHP rounds will not get to 12". 95 grain FMJ generally will, and some selectively chosen hollowpoint rounds will just make it (Federal 90 grain HS and Hornady 90 grain XTP come to mind, there are a few others, but also some spectacular duds).

If you added .38 Special +P rounds to the comparison, there is no comparison. Many of those LHP or JHP +P rounds will make the penetration standards and expand, and hit with a heavier bullet at greater energy than any .380 ACP.

You may or may not think the FBI standards are relevant - and of course that is an all-weekend argument - but considering only those standards, the .38 Special in actual testing is superior to the .380 ACP. Again, I prefer the .380 ACP pistol as a CCW firearm with preferred loads, but the .38 Special is a measurably better cartridge, even in a 2" gun. Out of a 3-4" barrel and/or +P ammo, there is nothing to even compare, the .38 Special is superior.

 

[QED]

I like .380 pistols for a variety of reasons and prefer them to the 5-shot .38 Special for what they are. However, while I'm not tyring to start an endess ballistic argument, there is no question that the .38 Special has somewhat superior terminal performance to the .380 in the FBI test protocol.

For starters, there are no "FBI expansion standards". None. The FBI only has penetration standards, being 12" minimum and 18" desirable maximum. Within that range, bullets are compared according to final expanded diameter. "Temporary wound cavity" is not a considered factor in FBI terminal ballistic testing of handgun rounds.

There are a slew of standard pressure 38 Special rounds that will easily make those penetration standards: 158-200 grain RNL or SWC, 148 grain WC target loads, 130 grain FMJ, Hornady 158 XTP, and others. The later actually expands out of a 2" barrel. All non-+P.

.380 ACP loads... most of the JHP rounds will not get to 12". 95 grain FMJ generally will, and some selectively chosen hollowpoint rounds will just make it (Federal 90 grain HS and Hornady 90 grain XTP come to mind, there are a few others, but also some spectacular duds).

If you added .38 Special +P rounds to the comparison, there is no comparison. Many of those LHP or JHP +P rounds will make the penetration standards and expand, and hit with a heavier bullet at greater energy than any .380 ACP.

You may or may not think the FBI standards are relevant - and of course that is an all-weekend argument - but considering only those standards, the .38 Special in actual testing is superior to the .380 ACP. Again, I prefer the .380 ACP pistol as a CCW firearm with preferred loads, but the .38 Special is a measurably better cartridge, even in a 2" gun. Out of a 3-4" barrel and/or +P ammo, there is nothing to even compare, the .38 Special is superior.

With terminal ballistics evidently being a consideration for you, then why do you like .380 ACP pistols and prefer them over .38 j-frames? If it's because 5 shots are not deemed sufficient, then a 9mm pocket pistol can be used instead of a .380 pistol -- in order to have superior terminal performance without sacrificing much in carrying comfort.

 

[Redhawk500]

I've carried a 5-shot J frame concealed but was never really comforted by the accuracy or reloadability. I've qualified with one, in full daylight and given plenty of time to reload out of the box of wadcutters. I view it as a back-up to a real gun with 4 inch barrel, six or more 357 Magnums or any 40 caliber or above semiauto. I've hear how great the 380 auto and 9mm cartridges are now and am glad for it. I shot at 7 yards into a bullet trap at home to recover the lead, cheap bullet caster that I am. A few rounds go down range at the 100 yard gong and a few rested clay pigeon size groups at intermediate distances get attempted too. If they have rifles and I have a pistol, I want them to carry the marks to their autopsy. My frustration of being out of range of my tiny revolver isn't something I want to carry with me to my grave. Adjusted clothing styles, better belts and holsters, spare magazine, moon clips, speed loads, speed strips, knives, lights, cell phones (someone has to report what happened), spare guns such as J-frames for a competent friendly all have a place. Compromise purpose for comfort? Not in my planning. I do limit my carry to 4 pounds, all gear included. A pair of 6 inch N frames won't be an option.

 

[elm_creek_smith]

My normal primary concealed carry these days is a S&W Model 12-2 .38 Special with standard pressure ammo. It has a full-size grip and holds 6 rounds while weighing 22 ounces loaded. I back it up with a S&W Model 642-2 with .38 Special +P ammo. All my reloads in Bianchi Speed Strips are standard pressure. Our qualification course runs out to 25 yards, and I usually shoot at least one 100.

Sent from my XT1565 using Tapatalk

 

[686-380]

Sheesh

Except in this day, they are coming to us.

Thank you, Mary Sunshine, for THAT ray of hope

 

[Mister X]

Sometimes the most comfortable gun may also be the most effective. The notion that a hammerless J-frame offers no advantages other than being easy to carry is flawed. There seems to be a common misconception that if a concealed carrying civilian has to use their firearm in a self-defense, that there will usually be a certain amount of separation between them and the attacker(s). That simply isn't true in the vast majority of scenarios armed citizen is likely to encounter.

Engaging multiple armed criminals, terrorists or an active shooter at distance is extremely improbable, especially having no other option but to do so. Fleeing the scene(even while firing) of such occurrences is almost always the best default response. And let's also make the distinction between proactive intervention(like against an active shooter) where you willingly engage even though it's not absolutely necessary to protect youself or your family vs a reactive self-defense situation where you have no other choice but to respond with counter-measures. I think a lot of folks look to military and police shootings and come to certain conclusions, but it is their job to pursue and engage(offensive/proactive) vs the civilian who should be trying to avoid and escape(defensive/reactive) when possible.

Muggings, rape, close-quarter physical assaults(armed or unarmed), car jackings, armed robberies are still the most common scenarios the armed civilian will face. These are extremely close-quarter events and the enclosed hammer snub revolver has some definate advantages in these types of scenarios such as being quick to access and bring into action, excellent weapon retention, muzzle contact shots are not an issue(no slide to get pushed out if battery), no exposed hammer to snag on the draw, get blocked or entangled in a close-quarter struggle, no reciprocating slide to worry about during retention position shots, no issues of limp-writing which is a concern since a less than ideal grip is common in these situations.

Multiple assailants are an ever growing concern, but what are the most probable circumstances we would encounter them? Most likely it will be in the close-quarter assaults we see on a daily basis similar to one on the video. In these scenarios, the specific ECQ strengths of the enclosed hammer snub revolver are still a very definite advantage. I would agree that the limited capacity would be a bit concerning, but there are trade-offs with everything and you could carry two airweight snubs fairly easily. 17 rounds won't help you if your high capacity auto jams after the first shot, is pushed out of battery or you are disarmed of it. Do you think you'll have time and the ability to clear a malfunction in these situations? Do you train to do so? Do you train weapon retention extensively and firing from various compressed and retention positions in context? Something like a full size M1911 with it's low capacity, extended muzzle and manual safeties is comparatively a mix of disadvantages in these scenarios except perhaps as an impact weapon. And do you actually realistically train for these scenarios? How many times have you geared up and participated in contact FoF/force on force simulating these scenarios? You can often use movement(getting off the X/moving the X) and unarmed defensive measures to create space even against a relatively large group of people, but very few people actually train these methods realistically or at all and what if you are with your family whom you have to protect. If you have no understanding of the dynamics of these scenarios, your odds of responding to them effectively is not very good.


[ame]https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T2G6pItUa_Y[/ame]

 

[les.b]

This is an appropriate time to resurrect my thread from back in April. A local elderly man used his small, 5 shot .38 special revolver when he was attacked in his home. By the way, an update to the linked strory...this week a local Grand Jury met and returned indictments against the surviving home invaders. I will try to find the story on line and update the attached thread.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...s-self-home-invasion-updated-4-22-2016-a.html

Best Regards, Les

 

[otasan56]

My CCW is quite comfortable, comforting, and effective. It is a Glock 17 pistol in an OWB Bianchi 4/4L leather hip holster at 3 o'clock. The ammo is CorBon 9mm 115gr JHP +p doing 1400 FPS @ 15 feet. With this load I can keep five shots within 3 inches at 50 feet.

But, I also keep a 12 ga Mossberg 500 shotgun loaded with six slugs. One never knows!