Sorry if this was posted already, I used the search function and didn't see it:
http://www.unionleader.com/art...ca-8d86-0cd112c36164
http://www.unionleader.com/art...ca-8d86-0cd112c36164
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Cops Think Outside The Box To Avoid Standoff, Firemen Mad, Say It Puts Them At Risk
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Sorry if this was posted already, I used the search function and didn't see it:
http://www.unionleader.com/art...ca-8d86-0cd112c36164
http://www.unionleader.com/art...ca-8d86-0cd112c36164
Last edited by a moderator:
Mickey D
Member
Many years ago, the local police agency in Concord CA used our local utility vehicles and dressed as construction workers during surveillance of drug properties and criminal activity.
This practice stopped due to the same concerns of employee safety.
This practice stopped due to the same concerns of employee safety.
Wheelgunner840
Member
I really don't know how I feel about this. Being a firefighter, I am biased toward thinking the same way some of the FF people in the article feel. Our entire occupation, and the health and wealfare of the public depends on the public trusting us. This type thing does compromise that trust. While I am all for taking the bad guy in without a struggle, I wouldn't want to see something like this become commonplace.
WG840
WG840
If they made it a habit, it wouldn't be "thinking outside the box" anymore and no longer a surprise. I think the firemen are blowing it out of proportion. Plus, if the fire chief had any problem with it, he should have made it known before he handed over the keys to the fire truck.
And.....what about departments that are Public Safety type departments were the cops also fight fires and operate as EMS personnel. Do the the citizens in those types of municipalities fail to call for help because they know a fireman who is also a cop is coming?
And.....what about departments that are Public Safety type departments were the cops also fight fires and operate as EMS personnel. Do the the citizens in those types of municipalities fail to call for help because they know a fireman who is also a cop is coming?
Mickey D
Member
We have actually had a gas serviceman shot in the back and linemen shot at while performing their duties in Richmond CA, due to druggies thinking they were cops on surveillance.
As mentioned before, this practice ceased 15-20 years ago.
As mentioned before, this practice ceased 15-20 years ago.
Wheelgunner840
Member
I'll give you that one, even though firetrucks don't use keys
Three things come immediately to mind.
1. Deceiving the bad guys is a tool that is commonly used by law enforcement (stings etc.) and they work.
2. To use firefighters in this way is extremely deceitful, in that we rely on trust for us to perform our duties to the best of our training and ability. There are probably 100 other scams that could have been used that would have worked.
3. (And I think most important) If the media would have just shut the %@#& up, none of this would be and issue right now.
WG840
Faulkner
Member
+1 That right there is where the finger pointing needs to be. Not talking about infringing on the 1st Amendment, but about utilizing some common sense restraint.
Tom M
Member
Truer words were never spoken. Sometimes, the local news is like a video training course for bandits.
Now back to your regularly scheduled post...
RobO
Member
Seems like a bad idea to me. As far as dealing with a guy who points a shotgun at a cop who is trying to do his job, he starts a short clock to his demise. I say get a warrant, surround his house, order everyone out notifying of your intent to arrest. Then smoke him out and use necessary force to arrest.
EQGuy
US Veteran
About 10 or 15 years ago a DEA agent posed as a USGS Geologist to check for illegal drugs in Mendocino County. Around the same time a student working for USGS was murdered by marijuana growers in the area.
FairPlayTrader
US Veteran
Hey Wheelgunner840
The 1962 Ford Pumper that my department retired last month used keys! The last fire it fought was in Nov.
The 1962 Ford Pumper that my department retired last month used keys! The last fire it fought was in Nov.
Doug M.
Member
I would not advocate it, because I think the firefighters' concerns are at least valid enough to be given more weight. The only person responsible for offender safety is the offender.
Bad plan. Plain clothes for surveillance okay, but never utility or fire or phone uniforms.
I don't know the details of the BG's hideout, but there musta been a different safe way. If not, well, that's what time is for, to think of something. All else fails, that's what SWAT is for: the tool of last choice.
I don't know the details of the BG's hideout, but there musta been a different safe way. If not, well, that's what time is for, to think of something. All else fails, that's what SWAT is for: the tool of last choice.
Oh no, don't mention SWAT. That brings in a whole new post that goes on for days and days.
Personally I think the concern is over blown too but what do I know. I'm a cop.
I like the story in Detroit during a rash of Churches Chicken franchise holdups in the 70s where one of the Stake Out crew was dressed like a Chicken waiving customers in when the robbery went down. The Chicken (cop) walked into the robbery and produced a shot gun and said "trick or treat M----F er" and let the holdup guy have it.
Can you imagine the last thing you see in life is a chicken with a 12 gauge?
Personally I think the concern is over blown too but what do I know. I'm a cop.
I like the story in Detroit during a rash of Churches Chicken franchise holdups in the 70s where one of the Stake Out crew was dressed like a Chicken waiving customers in when the robbery went down. The Chicken (cop) walked into the robbery and produced a shot gun and said "trick or treat M----F er" and let the holdup guy have it.
Can you imagine the last thing you see in life is a chicken with a 12 gauge?
How many Church's Fried Chickens have to be robbed in a week to denote a "rash" as opposed to "business as usual"? I got a run one time to a Church's on: "Church's hasn't been robbed in a while, go over there and see what's wrong."
Friend of mine walked into a McDonald's on a "customer trouble" call. Looked like nothing was wrong from the outside. Walked up to the manager and asked "Everything OK?" Manager Said "Yeah, everything's fine." He glanced over to an employee who moved her eyes back and forth in a "no" gesture. At the same time, the holdup man, who was waiting in line as a "customer" Put a gun to the right side of my buddy's head and said "Don't pull your sh*t man!" At about that time, the cop, who was left-handed, pulled his Model 66 and shot the guy through the gut with a (unapproved) .357 Super Vel WHILE the guy had the gun to his head! Guy went down and that was that.
There are valid concerns on both sides, but as a career LE type I have to come down on the of the firefighters. They are not armed and it would be a really bad thing for the BGs to start thinking that any fire personnel might be armed cops.
Wheelgunner840
Member
Originally posted by FairPlayTrader:
Hey Wheelgunner840
The 1962 Ford Pumper that my department retired last month used keys! The last fire it fought was in Nov.
LOL! When I started, we had a 66 ford pumper. I cannot remember if it had keys or not. I think it had a key and a push button start.
I think I might have you beat with this one though. We actually ran a 1954 (maybe '56) Am-LaFrance back around 1975. It had a 12 cylinder, 24 valve engine. The nose on this old pumper was as long as the rest of the truck. No brakes to speak of. One had to double clutch and downshift the snot out of it in order to slow it down! Talk about grinding gears!
Those were the days!
These days, they don't even put a back step on the darn things!
Sorry for the thread drift Boomer. I got caught up in the trip down memory lane.
WG840
tom turner
US Veteran
Yeah,
1. Leave the firefighters out of the deception, for their future safety. This is so important.
2. Convince the local press not to report ALL the details of police techniques used to nab the BGs . . . again, to protect EVERYONE.
3. In the future, the police should disguise themselves as the kind of folks that the BGs welcome with open arms . . . such as Community Organizers and Acorn representatives!
T.
1. Leave the firefighters out of the deception, for their future safety. This is so important.
2. Convince the local press not to report ALL the details of police techniques used to nab the BGs . . . again, to protect EVERYONE.
3. In the future, the police should disguise themselves as the kind of folks that the BGs welcome with open arms . . . such as Community Organizers and Acorn representatives!
T.
44forever
Member
I'm with the firefighters on this one. They won't be able to do their job if they are perceived as working with or supplying information to the police.
Does anybody remember the outcry when it was proposed that delivery people, utility workers and others who are routinely admitted to peoples' houses should report anything suspicious to the homeland security?
As for the press, if they don't report every detail they can get their hands on, they're not doing their jobs. What if the details they don't report would show abuse of constitutional rights?
Does anybody remember the outcry when it was proposed that delivery people, utility workers and others who are routinely admitted to peoples' houses should report anything suspicious to the homeland security?
As for the press, if they don't report every detail they can get their hands on, they're not doing their jobs. What if the details they don't report would show abuse of constitutional rights?
Wheelgunner840
Member
Originally posted by tom turner:
..... police should disguise themselves as the kind of folks that the BGs welcome with open arms . . . such as Community Organizers and Acorn representatives!
Very good Tom!
WG840
jjones33
Member
Bad, bad idea and even worse when they did it. Nashville's paramedics were issued virtually the same uniform as the Nashville Metro Police as a cost saving measure. Did they ever kick a fit. Valid point was that they usually showed up at a shooting BEFORE the police did and the last thing they wanted to look like was the po-po in bad neighborhoods.
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Since FF tend to use LE as hazardous materials detectors at accident scenes, where's the issue?
More seriously, the driving issue here was that the original incident took place in an apartment building. There was more at risk than the offender. However they handled the issue, there would have been much criticism flowing.
More seriously, the driving issue here was that the original incident took place in an apartment building. There was more at risk than the offender. However they handled the issue, there would have been much criticism flowing.
Wheelgunner840
Member
???????????????
I don't understand this. In the city where I worked, we were trained to handle haz-mat. The police were trained to stay back. "Each others keeper" and all that, actually meant something to us. Not sure what you mean exactly.
WG840
Faulkner
Member
Have you never heard of the term "blue canary"?
Wheelgunner840
Member
Can't say that I have. If it happened that a LEO walked into a haz-mat scene unknowingly prior to our arrival, that would be a tragic accident, not purposely caused by the FD. At least not in my neck of the woods. Sounded to me that the post I quoted,
suggested using the PD in that way. Not a chance.
WG840
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LE usually beats the fire folks to accident scenes, especially on the interstate. My son was the one who told me about using LE as haz-mat detectors.
I'll also point out that I once worked an accident where the truck wasn't visible from the road. The truck driver managed to get to where we were and informed us the wreck was a gasoline tanker. First time I ever drove 40+ mph in reverse-we just got clear when the truck blew.
My son also told a funny story about responding to an accident scene on I-95. They saw someone running toward them as they approached. Realizing it was the truck driver, they stopped. The driver didn't. He dropped the manifest and kept running saying something about "Methyl-ethyl-nasty-stuff" as he passed.
My apologies to the moderators about the previously attempted quote, wasn't thinking.
I'll also point out that I once worked an accident where the truck wasn't visible from the road. The truck driver managed to get to where we were and informed us the wreck was a gasoline tanker. First time I ever drove 40+ mph in reverse-we just got clear when the truck blew.
My son also told a funny story about responding to an accident scene on I-95. They saw someone running toward them as they approached. Realizing it was the truck driver, they stopped. The driver didn't. He dropped the manifest and kept running saying something about "Methyl-ethyl-nasty-stuff" as he passed.
My apologies to the moderators about the previously attempted quote, wasn't thinking.
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