Could use some help with filling out end label!
- Thread starter brosco
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
You do understand that some of the serious collectors (not I) bristle at the notion of reproduction labels? They may have unkind thoughts for anyone recreating a correct box as they may consider that to constitute forgery.
Just sayin'...
Just sayin'...
bigmoneylewis
Member
- Joined
- Sep 24, 2011
- Messages
- 248
- Reaction score
- 231
Seriously ? Why in the world did anybody tool up and make reproduction labels?
This will be abused no doubt to mislead and trick buyers in to thinking they are getting an original box with the gun they just paid top dollar for. The intentions may be good, but I see greedy scamers aging reproduction boxes and adding repro labels to squeeze out an additional $ 400 from the unsuspecting collector.
Reproduction documentation is bad news, no matter what hobby you are in. We have a big problem in the collector car world with people making reproduction buildsheets, fender tags, VINs etc. Art collectors are having a big problem with "reproduction" certificates of authinticity,
The Chinese have honed their art of counterfieting rare U.S.coins to the point where several have gotten into PCGS holders as genuine ,
Damn scammers are ruining every hobby you can think of .
Lewis
This will be abused no doubt to mislead and trick buyers in to thinking they are getting an original box with the gun they just paid top dollar for. The intentions may be good, but I see greedy scamers aging reproduction boxes and adding repro labels to squeeze out an additional $ 400 from the unsuspecting collector.
Reproduction documentation is bad news, no matter what hobby you are in. We have a big problem in the collector car world with people making reproduction buildsheets, fender tags, VINs etc. Art collectors are having a big problem with "reproduction" certificates of authinticity,
The Chinese have honed their art of counterfieting rare U.S.coins to the point where several have gotten into PCGS holders as genuine ,
Damn scammers are ruining every hobby you can think of .
Lewis
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Told ya...
You answered your own question.
And it isn't a future likelihood. Anybody notice an uptick in "original, numbered" boxes with guns for sale in the last year or so? I have...
It's our own fault (some of us) that this is happening. If a buyer turns up their nose at an otherwise nice revolver because it is missing a dang cardboard box, a black and white instruction sheet, or a minimally functional screwdriver, the market levels the field by providing those items.
I'm not saying it's right to defraud people. It's not. However, if you are a buyer that gets all googly eyed over "box and papers", you'd better be on your toes.
I'm not saying it's right to defraud people. It's not. However, if you are a buyer that gets all googly eyed over "box and papers", you'd better be on your toes.
Watchdog
Member
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2013
- Messages
- 12,510
- Reaction score
- 32,351
What would your first guess be? Money, of course.
There's a bunch of them for sale on fleabay.
Easy now, Lewis.
I had the label on one of my boxes curl up and fall off so I put on a repro. No intention to fool anyone, the original stays in the box where it won't get lost.
-Z-
The fake boxes have been an issue with the Colt collectors for several years now. There's an individual from Sparta TN that has been doing it on a couple of major auction sights. He even has pre-1900 SAA boxes he will sell you for $750. He's gotten much better at faking them too, it's become difficult to tell them from real boxes in some cases.
Well, here's the other side of the coin: I had a question about my warranty-refinished Colt electroless DS (refinished by Colt due to failure of the early experimental electroless finish) so I went to the Colt forum and posted my question along with a photo of the original box label for authenticity. I got zero responses after well over 100 views. 
Apparently the Colt collecting scene is riddled beyond the imagination with frauds, fakes, misrepresentations. I guess the members there figured that this was just another attempt by someone to pass off a 3rd party refinished Colt for a Colt refinished Colt.
Seems like every fifth post over there is about frauds, fakes and misrepresentations.
I guess I should have expected the cold shoulder. 
Apparently the Colt collecting scene is riddled beyond the imagination with frauds, fakes, misrepresentations. I guess the members there figured that this was just another attempt by someone to pass off a 3rd party refinished Colt for a Colt refinished Colt.
Seems like every fifth post over there is about frauds, fakes and misrepresentations.
I guess I should have expected the cold shoulder. Ha!!! I see you beat me to the draw re: Colts.
All 19-3s were labeled in pink ink, very important. Shade the backround in light yellow. Also that's a post marcas registradas gun, so all letters must be written in Spanish. Oh, and almost forgot, underline each individual letter with orange ink. Make sure the letters alternate leaning from right to left. If you follow all these steps, even an expert won't be able to tell.
Well, here's the other side of the coin: I had a question about my warranty-refinished Colt electroless DS (refinished by Colt due to failure of the early experimental electroless finish) so I went to the Colt forum and posted my question along with a photo of the original box label for authenticity. I got zero responses after well over 100 views.
Apparently the Colt collecting scene is riddled beyond the imagination with frauds, fakes, misrepresentations. I guess the members there figured that this was just another attempt by someone to pass off a 3rd party refinished Colt for a Colt refinished Colt.
Seems like every fifth post over there is about frauds, fakes and misrepresentations.
There probably aren't that many people that can tell real from fake over on the Colt forum, and some of those that can need to see the boxes in person. They also don't want to give up what they look for in a fake box because they know the forger from Sparta monitors the forum.
let he who is without sin, cast the first stone, I been selling boxes from out of the trash, and gun shows, since the 1960s, most all of them pretty darn cheap, and I can tell you MOST of the collectors been buying them all these years,,,if NO ONE wanted or needed them, they would NOT sell, now days I could NOT even buy one for twice the money I used to get for them.Nothing wrong with putting YOUR gun into a "proper vintage" package,,,,,,,,,now YOU want to try and scam or perpetrate a fraud on to someone else, then shame on YOU.................
+1. BTW, how many of us put period correct (but not numbered to the gun) grips on a gun we acquire with goodyears? Oh yeah, the SAT in my pre 29 box is not the one that came with it originally. Nor is the mop. Guess I'm a forger.
Jack Flash
Member
This points out a real problem. Trying to be helpful, many experts here will describe in detail the tell-tale signs of a fake. Unfortunately, unscrupulous individuals can access this information as easily as anyone else.
Dennis The B
US Veteran
It's one thing to have a box which may be period correct, but not original to the gun. Lot's of boxes get sold at garage sales, etc., and the guns are long gone.
However, the clown from Sparta, whether he monitors the Colt Forum, or not, probably doesn't fill out the labels for his counterfeits. The end user probably does, and that person doesn't particularly care if the writing is correct. They know the box and forged documents will enhance the value of a Python, etc. And because collectors with little experience will fall for the "NIB Python, Original Box, Documents" spiel. The worst I've seen are the ones with 1990's copyrights, with 1970's guns.
And speaking of fakes.
Weekend before last, I attended a local gun show. This company moves from city to city, and you see a lot of new guns, and not a lot of collectible arms.
One shooter had two Pythons and a Diamondback for sale at his table. All three had four inch barrels, but one particularly caught my eye. The seller had $1,900 on the gun, and told me that this particular one was a "near mint" 1973-1974 model, which the serial number confirmed. His price was firm.
However, as soon as I looked at the gun, you could see the faults. The 2nd generation stocks had been refinished, and not that well. The worst thing, though, was the fact the barrel had been cut from 6", to 4". The sight was remounted, but the front sight sat proud to the rib, since the rib no longer tapered upward. The roll marks were off-center toward the muzzle, and the crown was flush.
I mentioned this to the seller, and he just glared a bit, insisting that the revolver was "mint".
However, the clown from Sparta, whether he monitors the Colt Forum, or not, probably doesn't fill out the labels for his counterfeits. The end user probably does, and that person doesn't particularly care if the writing is correct. They know the box and forged documents will enhance the value of a Python, etc. And because collectors with little experience will fall for the "NIB Python, Original Box, Documents" spiel. The worst I've seen are the ones with 1990's copyrights, with 1970's guns.
And speaking of fakes.
Weekend before last, I attended a local gun show. This company moves from city to city, and you see a lot of new guns, and not a lot of collectible arms.
One shooter had two Pythons and a Diamondback for sale at his table. All three had four inch barrels, but one particularly caught my eye. The seller had $1,900 on the gun, and told me that this particular one was a "near mint" 1973-1974 model, which the serial number confirmed. His price was firm.
However, as soon as I looked at the gun, you could see the faults. The 2nd generation stocks had been refinished, and not that well. The worst thing, though, was the fact the barrel had been cut from 6", to 4". The sight was remounted, but the front sight sat proud to the rib, since the rib no longer tapered upward. The roll marks were off-center toward the muzzle, and the crown was flush.
I mentioned this to the seller, and he just glared a bit, insisting that the revolver was "mint".
- Joined
- Jun 28, 2007
- Messages
- 27,669
- Reaction score
- 21,363
Completing a set of correct vintage (un-numbered) tools and parts for the sake of personally enjoying an "original" gun with box and accessories is common, as you know - been there, done that. A world of difference from selling this as original from the factory with a correspondingly higher price, and at least one solar system away from faked labels, aging and whatnot.
- Joined
- Aug 21, 2005
- Messages
- 8,020
- Reaction score
- 7,101
I am sorry to say that this practice, IF DONE TO DEFRAUD SOMEONE, is only one step removed from SOME (NOT ALL, SO IT IS NOT NECESSARY THAT EVERYONE ATTACK ME OVER THIS) folks who inquire how to clean the burn rings off the cylinder face. I have seen such guns at gun shows - they stick out LIKE A SORE THUMB - and the fat gent behind the table "spewing fragments of cheeseburger" INSISTS that the weapon is "new in the box and unfired."
It is "buyer beware" not only as to boxes, papers, tools, but also as to attempting to make a weapon fired since the factory look unfired except by the factory.
I have been looking at how they come in for decades now, and I can and do know the difference.
It is "buyer beware" not only as to boxes, papers, tools, but also as to attempting to make a weapon fired since the factory look unfired except by the factory.
I have been looking at how they come in for decades now, and I can and do know the difference.
Last edited:
Big Cholla
Member
"Authentic" vs. "Reproduction" can take another twist: I had a friend here in LV that was what I deemed a "fanatical craftsman". He was an artist, then an upholsterer, then an Aircraft A&E Mechanic. He got interested in the issue equipment the average German Soldier had to work with while in Africa. He collected as much as possible but could never come up with a real Overseas Field Cap. He researched thru friends in Germany and found the actual company that made the Feldgrau Twill. He obtained all sorts of pictures. He found a German made thread that was all but the same as the original. He went to work and made one. He sent it to some people very active in the Battle Reenactment crowd. They wanted 40 or 50 of them. He made about 60. I was going to a gun show locally as a seller and he asked if he could sit in and try to sell the extras. He put one on the table and put a small card beside it that said, "Reproduction German Heer/Elite Enlistee M40 Field Cap" and the price. A small thin bald gentleman stopped and looked at the cap. With an accent, he asked if he could pick it up and examine the cap. My friend said, "Yes". The old gent took a good long look and then put the hat back down and said, "You are asking far too little for this cap as it is a new original." My friend said, "No sir, it is a reproduction." The old gent grew a little hostile and told him, "I was a Quartermaster for Rommel". I know for a fact that is as original as they come.". My friend said, "Thank you for the compliment. I made that hat from scratch." The old gent wasn't ready to accept that. He pointed out that the Twill was the German Twill, the thread was correct, the sewing with the thread was spaced correctly and even the size tab was correct and in mm. My friend said, "Yes, I made sure of all that by doing a lot of research." The old gent finished by saying, "Well, you could sell them to me as original all day long." And with that he walked off but not before giving my friend a salute (not the Nazi salute). ........... Big Cholla
I don't think too many people object to the owner of a "boxless" vintage gun buying an authentic period box to go with it. The fraud comes in only if that box is later represented as "original" and matched to the gun (meaning the gun in question was delivered out of the factory in that box).
The "reproduction" label thing (nicer word for "fake") is a far nastier fraud if used to falsely represent a box as original to the gun in order to get more money for it.
I don't think that fake S&W boxes are as much of a problem as fake Colt boxes. I could see where the box that my 1980ish electroless DS came in could be very easily reproduced in almost any print shop.
Fake S&W labels are another matter. They are probably very easily reproduced. That would upset me greatly if I detected one on the box of a gun I was considering buying.
Not long ago, I bought a 3rd Gen that was represented as being "used, with 2 magazines and box". I took for granted that the box was the original box for the gun. When the box was later turned over to me, I was shocked to see the label gone... very obviously torn off on purpose and a sloppy job at that.
While possibly correct for the gun, I'm betting now that it was not original to the gun.
Nothing like that feeling of having been played for a fool. 
Comrad
Member
Absent any actual indisputable proof that something is genuine we must assume it's fake.
I learned that watching the Pawn Stars.
I learned that watching the Pawn Stars.
It used to be "Buy the gun, not the story..." to which I've amended, "Buy the gun, not story...or the box, or the tools or the docs."
I've never been a collector in the "mint", "as new", etc. sense, but was never closed to the idea of a top-level purchase if the right one came along.
That's fading.
These days my ideal purchase is a revolver in fresh, superb mechanical condition with no box, tools or docs (real or dubious) to run up the price, and just a teensy touch of honest wear so I won't get fussy about actually, you know, using the thing.
I've never been a collector in the "mint", "as new", etc. sense, but was never closed to the idea of a top-level purchase if the right one came along.
That's fading.
These days my ideal purchase is a revolver in fresh, superb mechanical condition with no box, tools or docs (real or dubious) to run up the price, and just a teensy touch of honest wear so I won't get fussy about actually, you know, using the thing.
ibewbull
US Veteran
Copy
My replacement 28-2 is a copy of my original 28-2.
I picked up a second so both of my sons n have one.
The Polish Kawalski was what I rode to pick it up originally Norfolk VA.
None are for sale.
I don't have the cast from my MC accident but can tell a story for a beer.
My replacement 28-2 is a copy of my original 28-2.
I picked up a second so both of my sons n have one.
The Polish Kawalski was what I rode to pick it up originally Norfolk VA.
None are for sale.
I don't have the cast from my MC accident but can tell a story for a beer.
Frank237
Absent Comrade
I wonder why Colt hasn't gotten a few of their Attorneys to go after the Sparta counterfeiter? I would imagine it's a copyright infringement.
I have a number of original end labels that I got from the factory.
I would never sell any, nor I would never use any.
I would never sell any, nor I would never use any.
