Cratered primers/reloading for pistols

[Miracle Man]

Ok reloaders and/or pistol smiths. Have a couple questions for you?

So a buddy of mine recently gave me 2 or 300 mostly 9mm range pickup brass, have to sort out the 380, He doesn't reload. Just got done decapping them and they're in the wet tumbler.

While I was decapping them I noticed this one brand of brass was giving me a good bit more resistance than all the rest. Headstamp is S&B 9x19 20. I'm assuming Sellier & Bellot made in 2020?

Anyways, after 2 or 3 like that I got to looking closer and the primers on every one of them are the same. They're cratered very badly. The basically entire primer is hooved up like a volcano and the firing pin strike is almost flattened all the way out. The empty cases will not sit flush on a table.

So are cratered primers/badly deformed fired primers a sign of high pressure like they are in rifle cases? Could they just have been fired in a gun with suspect head space? Is S&B ammo junk?

I'm mainly asking because I noticed a couple of my 357 mag relaods with Blue dot powder few days ago had some cratered primers.

Thanks

 

[reddog81]

Without pics anything is just a guess. Even with pics you'll get a variety of answers.

Assuming the primer isn't crimped in place (which it might be with S&B brass), every time around fires the first thing that happens when the primer ignites is that the primer backs out of the case. Once the gun powder ignites and pressure builds the case will be slammed rearward with the same pressure driving the bullet down the barrel and this should reseat the primer in the case. Depending on condition of the gun parts such as firing pin bushing, firing pin hole, type of hammer or striker used or other reasons like the firing pin has been damaged can cause issues like you are seeing Additionally too little pressure can cause the primers to not reseat correctly.

 

[OKFC05]

The S&B I have picked up as range trash is sealed with a red substance, or crimped like military brass. Who knows when it was made. Recommend you sort it out, deprime, and clean/ ream the primer pockets. Then you should be able to resize, reprime, and load normally.
If I miss this, I usually have trouble seating the new primers.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

And, you can just toss them (as you should do regularly with ANY brass that you feel may be suspect)...

Cheers!

 

[PjEagle]

Over the years I have learned to toss all S&B brass in the scrap pile. Usually the primer pockets are too small among other things.

 

[Forrest r]

Wouldn't hurt to test them with a magnet.

As others have stated, I toss any s&b 9mm brass I find.

 

[6string]

Gun manufacturers just want to sell cheap products that go "Bang!"

A lot of currently manufactured 9mm pistols, ie: polymer carry-type guns, are very poorly made from a reloaders perspective.
Chambers are oversized, headspace is excessive, etc. all in an effort to make the gun go "Bang!" with whatever ammo is used, from expensive defensive ammo to surplus steel case foreign-made junk.
The problem you describe is often related to an oversized firing pin hole in the breech face of the slide. When the gun discharges, there is a ring of empty space around the firing pin and breech face. In a revolver this would be a big problem as the primer would flow back into that ring and bind the cylinder. In a semiauto that issue doesn't exist. But there's still a risk of a pierced primer.
My guess is, manufacturers do this to supposedly assist reliability in case of dirt build-up? Or, maybe they want to reduce the chance of chain firing should a broken or seized firing pin tip get jammed in the fully forward position in the breech?

Personally, I frown upon built-in slop as a lousy way of enhancing reliability over stricter tolerances and quality control. But that's what you get when obliging manufacturers cater to a consumer base that demands nothing more than a cheap price and only the most rudimentary of utilitarian function. Also, the vast majority of new gun owners are woefully uninformed about analyzing malfunctions. They just get upset and frustrated. I'm sure a lot of manufacturers and dealers just want to sell cheap guns that go "Bang!" so they don't have to listen to complaints from customers that don't know any better.

As for your brass, so long as a new primer fully seats without undue looseness or tightness, you're fine to use it.
But, with primer scarcity pushing people to buy off-brand primers (at black market prices!) made in third world countries, you might still have problems even if the brass itself is OK.

 

[Miracle Man]

I'll just sort out the S&B brass and toss it. I'll post a pic. Not sure if I can get a very good one with my phone though?

 

[dingomann]

Any excess pressure loads I have had experience with, the primer would come out quite easily.

 

[BE Mike]

My Beretta 92FS always shows primers looking like they are cratered. No problem reloading the brass.

 

[Miracle Man]

Here's the pics, not sure how good they are?

 

[6string]

That looks pretty common. Another cause can be a soft firing pin return spring. But, it's possible the alloy swaged to make the primer cup us a little soft.
In a bolt action rifle, I'd be concerned about gas blowback in the case of a primer leak. In a pistol, not so much. In any case, that doesn't affect you if you just want to use the brass.
I don't think you need to toss the brass. S&B brass is pretty good in a lot of ways. They swage the interior of the flash hole which theoretically gives more uniform ignition. Also, their case walls tend to be pretty uniform. They don't thicken as abruptly as some other brands, so they work well with heavy bullets.

 

[tmd17]

Another vote to not tossing the brass. Process it like you normally do and then see how new primers seat. If they are tight, swage them then load.

 

[Skyhunter]

Could it possibly have been fired in a submachine gun?

WYT-P
Skyhunter

 

[243winxb]

9mm Luger bulging primers.

Chuck them if worse then these.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I can't even make out what brand of paper towel that is...!

Bounty vs. Brawny? Winchester vs. cci?

Cheers!

 

[Miracle Man]

I can't even make out what brand of paper towel that is...!

Bounty vs. Brawny? Winchester vs. cci?

Cheers!

Hahaha The wife won't use anything but bounty so I'd bet my last primer that's what it is.

I grew up so to speak in reloading as a rifleman. And from reading every page of reloading info I could lay man hands on they all stated examine the primers on all fired rounds when working up a load.

But I've never paid more than very casual attention to fired pistol primers. My recent experience with Blue Dot powder and cratered primers just got me looking a lot closer.

If I fired those rounds with that deformed a primer I'd blow a gasket !! And it just got me thinking more about pressure signs in pistol reloads.

I've learned a lot on here, thanks everybody.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

Could be high pressure, could be low pressure, could be soft primers, could be an out of spec firing pin/bolt face, weak recoil spring, could just be from a blow-back operated pistol.

I have reloaded a bunch of S&B's without difficulty. I deprime before tumbling. Any stiff primers go into a separate bucket and get their primer pockets reamed.

 

[Just another 22 shooter]

A little late to be party, but I just took a quick look though my 1x fired 9mm brass. This is picked up from my local range. It's easy to see the brass is fired through different pistols. I can find examples in all the different brands of brass that look similar to the pics that Miracle Man posted. I've loaded hundreds of range pick up S&B brass with zero problems.

 

[Miracle Man]

Could be high pressure, could be low pressure, could be soft primers, could be an out of spec firing pin/bolt face, could just be from a blow-back operated pistol.

I have reloaded a bunch of S&B's without difficulty. I deprime before tumbling. Any stiff primers go into a separate bucket and get their primer pockets reamed.

Me too

And off topic a bit but I just started using a wet rotary tumbler with the SS pins and detergent. WOW

I couldn't believe the difference from the old dry media vibratory tumbler. And the pins and drying isn't that big a deal.

 

[Miracle Man]

A little late to be party, but I just took a quick look though my 1x fired 9mm brass. This is picked up from my local range. It's easy to see the brass is fired through different pistols. I can find examples in all the different brands of brass that look similar to the pics that Miracle Man posted. I've loaded hundreds of range pick up S&B brass with zero problems.

I'll probably pick out the S&B and see how new primers seat and go from there.

 

[BE Mike]

Herters ammo is marketed by Bass Pro/ Cabelas. They don't show .44 Rem. Mag. ammo. Maybe your discovery of a primer pocket problem is why. Good chance that you can ream out the primer pocket with a primer pocket uniforming tool and be in business. That .44 Rem. Mag. brass is hard to find and pricey.

 

[Paul in Nevada]

When in doubt, ream it out.

 

[Nevada Ed]

As for those cratered primers;

Each chamber of a pistol or rifle will cause different PSI in your loads
from gun to gun. ( revolver chambers: six different ? )

I have seen a load that develops a cratered primer strike in one 9mm pistol
look normal in another 9mm pistol, due to chamber & other changes.

Most pistol primers will take 30,000 PSI before they start to "Flow"
and need a "NATO" load before you will measure a change in it's diameter, reading and the base of case, swelling.

Normal primer loads, should still have the "Rounded corners" and a
small gap to the cases primer walls.

A new SPP is around .1745".
A +P Federal primer measured, .176"
A "Major" load will fill the primer area.

 

[markr6754]

Interesting post. I love S&B brass. Among my favorites. Hold up well, numerous reloads, a bit more challenging to resize factory fired brass, but good stuff. I also love their primers and sadness will reign when I finally run out.
I never paid much attention to fired primers until I began to reload in early 2018. Decapped thousands of saved cases without checking, but started observing my spent cases for signs of overpressure and unusual primers.

Posted this pic to another forum in April 2018, a "normal" primer at the top.

I'm now very comfortable seeing these oddly "cratered" primers, which show no other signs of overpressure. This is the look of every round I shoot from my Beretta 92FS, which has a recess in the breechface surrounding the firing pin. Light load, heavy load, they all look the same.

 

[BE Mike]

Interesting post. I love S&B brass. Among my favorites. Hold up well, numerous reloads, a bit more challenging to resize factory fired brass, but good stuff. I also love their primers and sadness will reign when I finally run out.
I never paid much attention to fired primers until I began to reload in early 2018. Decapped thousands of saved cases without checking, but started observing my spent cases for signs of overpressure and unusual primers.

Posted this pic to another forum in April 2018, a "normal" primer at the top.

I'm now very comfortable seeing these oddly "cratered" primers, which show no other signs of overpressure. This is the look of every round I shoot from my Beretta 92FS, which has a recess in the breechface surrounding the firing pin. Light load, heavy load, they all look the same.

I traded a buddy some .22 LR ammo for some primers. Some were S&B. I've had a few loaded in 9mm not ignite on the first strike in my Sig P320 compact. It could be that they are harder to seat all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket or they are just harder. The primer hits look good. I've never had that trouble with Winchester or Remington.

 

[Miracle Man]

Interesting post. I love S&B brass. Among my favorites. Hold up well, numerous reloads, a bit more challenging to resize factory fired brass, but good stuff. I also love their primers and sadness will reign when I finally run out.
I never paid much attention to fired primers until I began to reload in early 2018. Decapped thousands of saved cases without checking, but started observing my spent cases for signs of overpressure and unusual primers.

Posted this pic to another forum in April 2018, a "normal" primer at the top.

I'm now very comfortable seeing these oddly "cratered" primers, which show no other signs of overpressure. This is the look of every round I shoot from my Beretta 92FS, which has a recess in the breechface surrounding the firing pin. Light load, heavy load, they all look the same.

Interesting

The case all the way to the left looks basically exactly like all those S&B brass cases in my range pickups given to me. Primers hooved up and a very visible crater that I guess was smashed back down.

I just got finished loading about half a box of that same brass and seated two S&B cases with new primers with no issues.

When I started out reloading, like 1983, 4 somwhere in there all I loaded was rifles. 22-250, 223, 270, 30-06 and so on, bolt guns. As soon as I fired a round I ejected the case and gave the fired brass a good look especially the primer. Of course looking for any signs of high pressure.

Like you I've just never paid much attention to my pistol reloads brass/primers after firing. A week or so ago I fired some 357 mag reloads using Blue dot powder and had to push pretty hard on the ejector to get cases out of cylinder. Lightbulb went off and I looked at the primers and they had some noticeable craters.

I pulled all of those Blue dot loaded cases and have been paying a lot more attention to fired cases lately.

I'd guess those cases I've got were fired in a gun with a breech face like yours. I guess there's no problem? I just freaked out a little.

 

[Miracle Man]

I traded a buddy some .22 LR ammo for some primers. Some were S&B. I've had a few loaded in 9mm not ignite on the first strike in my Sig P320 compact. It could be that they are harder to seat all the way to the bottom of the primer pocket or they are just harder. The primer hits look good. I've never had that trouble with Winchester or Remington.

A relative of my wife's passed away 3 or 4 years ago. His wife gave me most of his reloading supplies, powder, primers, brass, bullets. A lot of it was pretty old as he hadn't been healthy for several years before he passed.

The powder I just burnt in a backyard fire. Some was in like Old IMR metal cans 4350 or whatever but labeled over H4895 or something, nah I'll pass on trusting what that is. Sorry I've gotten off in the weeds.

Anyways he had some older primers, CCI, Winchester, so on. I loaded some test 9mm rounds up with those old CCI SPP. The ones in the tiny 100 packs with primers turned on their sides. Probably 1-3 wouldn't fire on first strike, A few wouldn't fire at all in a couple different pistols.

Age ? Drew to much moisture over the years ? I don't really know when they quit packaging them like that ?

 

[Nevada Ed]

Chuck them if worse then these.

If I had primers that looked like that with factory ammo (post#15) ;

I would check the face of my bolt, for metal that has been removed, around the firing pin hole.

That is not a face of a "Normal" primer, with a quality bolt, surface.