Criticize me; Walmart shoplifting confrontation

[Bakebfr480]

Mind your own business!

 

[TTSH]

Shoplifting is not something that you need to be concerned about.

Wow, that statement floors me in a societal sense. Guess I'm just a dinosaur and out of touch with the way things work in our brave new morally bankrupt America.

Anyway, to the OP's specific question, Walmarts come in all varieties. The one near where I live couldn't be safer. The one near my elderly mother where I have to shop for her food is incredibly dangerous.

I don't think that your reaction was unusual and I don't see any point in beating yourself up over it. Were something going down at my local Walmart (where I know several of the employees) , I might be inclined to help in some way if the circumstances demanded it and I thought it appropriate. In the Walmart near dear old mom's place, I'd get as far away from developing trouble as fast as I possibly could.

 

[tomrkba]

You did nothing wrong. You watched to see if the manager was going to get attacked.

The main lessons here are:

1) Stay out of it even if there is a fight due to the legal environment we live in. Being a good samaritan is dangerous these days.
2) You watched the event almost from start to finish. This would make you a good witness.
3) You maintained awareness of the situation and yourself. There is nothing wrong here.

The only points of improvement I would give you are:
1) What were the hands of the men doing?
2) What were the points of egress from the store? There are exits at the back of the store. Were you aware of their locations?
3) Were there crowds near the exits and would you have been able to beat the crowd or would you have gotten stuck in the event of an attack?
4) What were the scruffy guys’ movements? Were they surrounding the manager? Were they trying to intimidate him?
5) Did you see any pre-assault indicators? Do you know what those are?

In summary:

1) Always know where the exits are.
2) Understand criminal tactics with regard to violent robbery.
3) Learn the pre-assault indicators.
4) Learn how to be a good witness by identifying uncommon attributes of the criminals (tatoos, facial features, basic description, etc)
5) Use your own tactics. If you do not know tactics, go get trained.
6) Learn about mob and crowd behavior in emergencies. Apply tactics to situations before the mob freaks out during an attack.

 

[tomrkba]

Wow, that statement floors me in a societal sense. Guess I'm just a dinosaur and out of touch with the way things work in our brave new morally bankrupt America.

Anyway, to the OP's specific question, Walmarts come in all varieties. The one near where I live couldn't be safer. The one near my elderly mother where I have to shop for her food is incredibly dangerous.

I don't think that your reaction was unusual and I don't see any point in beating yourself up over it. Were something going down at my local Walmart (where I know several of the employees) , I might be inclined to help in some way if the circumstances demanded it and I thought it appropriate. In the Walmart near dear old mom's place, I'd get as far away from developing trouble as fast as I possibly could.

Agreed, but our legal environment is one where intervention is nothing but bad for the Good Samaritan. Those days are long gone and the police have solidified their power over us.

 

[Muss Muggins]

Given all of the below, here's my point of improvement: Leave quicker . . .

The only points of improvement I would give you are:
1) What were the hands of the men doing?
2) What were the points of egress from the store? There are exits at the back of the store. Were you aware of their locations?
3) Were there crowds near the exits and would you have been able to beat the crowd or would you have gotten stuck in the event of an attack?
4) What were the scruffy guys’ movements? Were they surrounding the manager? Were they trying to intimidate him?
5) Did you see any pre-assault indicators? Do you know what those are?

In summary:

1) Always know where the exits are.
2) Understand criminal tactics with regard to violent robbery.
3) Learn the pre-assault indicators.
4) Learn how to be a good witness by identifying uncommon attributes of the criminals (tatoos, facial features, basic description, etc)
5) Use your own tactics. If you do not know tactics, go get trained.
6) Learn about mob and crowd behavior in emergencies. Apply tactics to situations before the mob freaks out during an attack.

 

[642_PC]

Please remember that the cell phone can be the best defensive choice. Just yelling "I am calling 911" could end a situation like that. There is no law against brandishing the phone.

 

[Ziggy2525]

I’d go for two options depending on how serious you thought it was getting..

#1 Ask the Walmart Greeter inside the door to let store security know there was a confrontation out front with an employee.

#2 If you thought it was getting more serious than that, call 911 and let them know there is a confrontation between an employee and a customer, then notify the greeter as above.

The OP asked this as a concealed carry question, but the event doesn’t have any thing to do with concealed carry or how often the OP practices at the range. There was no deadly force attack.

If you didn’t have any weapon and you come across a similar confrontation in front of any store, what would you do?

 

[Old cop]

I was called to many situations like this during my career but mind my own business in retirement. The fact that you were watching the confrontation is pretty normal and I can’t see that you did anything wrong. If there is a next time I’ll call 911 right away then get away from the situation. Using your gun can have drastic consequences you may not be prepared for, especially on the civil suit side of things. My EDC is very minimal, and is a last ditch effort to save myself or a loved one. Don’t beat yourself up, what you did is pretty normal.

 

[Well Armed]

I mind my own business... Even if there was a fight, I mind my business. If my life or the life of a family member isn't at risk, I don't get involved. If I think there might be danger, I call L.E. and let them deal with it... If someone starts shooting, I'm getting myself and my family out of there as quick as I can. I don't feel like it's my job or responsibility to save the world just because I have a firearm strapped to my hip...

 

[Rocket3]

I don’t see you doing anything wrong. Someone watching others argue would not be uncommon.

The major concern I would have with your situation was “I presume” that will get you in deep trouble fast. Could have been his brother, lover, whatever.

As stated going for your phone is much better than your Shield unless you are under attack.

 

[brucev]

Guess it's really true ... when a man has a hammer in his hand, everything looks like a nail. This is the sort of scenario that provides the basis for various gun magazine articles and various YouTube videos. Probably best not to read to many such magazines or watch to many such videos. That hammer and nail parallel would be problematic.

There is absolutely nothing at all in any WalMart that might be shoplifted that is worth going jungle on anyone. Call 911. The management can do the rest keeping the person in sight, etc. till police arrive. JMHO. Sincerely. bruce.

 

[TTSH]

The OP asked this as a concealed carry question, but the event doesn’t have any thing to do with concealed carry or how often the OP practices at the range. There was no deadly force attack.

Bingo. My thought exactly.

I'd only add to my post above that the "greeter" at my local Walmart is about a 90 year old man who stands 4'10" tall and is usually wearing some kind of medical brace on one arm. The "greeters" (plural) at the Walmart near dear old mom are 4 in number and typically include two male bouncer types and two women... all at the same door. Like I said above, depending on your particular Walmart store, a trouble-making shoplifter trying to leave the store will be in a whole different situation.

 

[eb07]

My suggestion: avoid walmart like the plague. It is one of the SSS violations IMHO.... the stupid people part, as you well know because your hairs alerted you to a few of them.

 

[Well Armed]

Bingo. My thought exactly.

I'd only add to my post above that the "greeter" at my local Walmart is about a 90 year old man who stands 4'10" tall and is usually wearing some kind of medical brace on one arm. The "greeters" (plural) at the Walmart near dear old mom are 4 in number and typically include two male bouncer types and two women... all at the same door. Like I said above, depending on your particular Walmart store, a trouble-making shoplifter trying to leave the store will be in a whole different situation.

I don't know about Wal-Mart, but It's the policy of most companies for the employees to stay out of it. Matter of fact, there have been publicized instances where employees were accually fired for getting involved. My thinking is that the stores don't want the employees escalating the situation to the point that it gets violent and someone gets hurt over stuff.

Besides, Wal-Mart has dozens of hi def camras covering every inch of their property including the parking lot. I'd let the theif leave quietly, and let L.E. and Loss Prevention catch him/her later. Wal-Mart doesn't pay enough to risk bodily harm to protect their Made in China goods...

 

[THEmodelof1989]

Working law enforcement, I've responded to several cases were a licensed carrier "thought" he should get involved in something that had nothing to do with him and it landed him in HOT water. We show up and some poor schmuck in public thinks he made a citizen arrest, but instead ends up in cuffs in the back of the car right next to the guy he was going to stop. A national case of George Zimmerman comes to mind; he got a "not guilty" verdict, but ask him if he'd go through all the financial, family, and mental anguish again. IM NOT INTERESTED IN DISECTING THE ZIMMERMAN CASE, so please don't @ me about it; we're only talking about what actually happened.

You aren't law enforcement, sticking yourself where you shouldn't be WILL land you in trouble; legally and financially. You are right at retirement age, it would really be a shame if you were working until you died to pay legal fees.

I'm not trying to be mean, but carrying a gun is a HUGE responsibility. If this Walmart incident, that didn't involve you in the slightest, is really something you grappled with, perhaps you should leave the gun in the car and just carry some pepper spray into Walmart with you.

 

[CAJUNLAWYER]

Not my circus, not my monkeys

 

[Kanewpadle]

I 100% agree! But I only knew about the shoplifting AFTERWARDS.

In the moment I heard arguing and raised voices. I didn't know what to make of it and if things escalated I don't feel like I made a good choice to simply go on about my business, turning my back on the people arguing as they were going out, and I was going into the store.

Remember, there was a second man with the shoplifter. Where was he? What was he doing?

Maybe the next time I'll turn around and walk back out to my car until things settle down. I feel like I really froze, especially mentally in the heat of the moment.

I'm not former LEO nor military. I just don't have these things thought through like a lot of you do.

Understood. I didn’t say you did anything wrong. It was a statement.

 

[Kanewpadle]

Wow, that statement floors me in a societal sense. Guess I'm just a dinosaur and out of touch with the way things work in our brave new morally bankrupt America.

Anyway, to the OP's specific question, Walmarts come in all varieties. The one near where I live couldn't be safer. The one near my elderly mother where I have to shop for her food is incredibly dangerous.

I don't think that your reaction was unusual and I don't see any point in beating yourself up over it. Were something going down at my local Walmart (where I know several of the employees) , I might be inclined to help in some way if the circumstances demanded it and I thought it appropriate. In the Walmart near dear old mom's place, I'd get as far away from developing trouble as fast as I possibly could.

Bothers me too. But what are you going to do? Chase every “suspected” shoplifter you see?

Other people get paid to take them on. We pay higher prices for loss prevention personnel, surveillance, and product loss. And the problem still exists.

 

[SC_Mike]

Two people arguing does not require a response of deadly force.

Shoplifting, which was found out after the fact and still not 100% clear the items were stolen- you just heard arguing, does not require a response of deadly force.

If you want to be a witness, stay and watch. From what I read you were never in danger, no one was. Think of it this way, would you be willing to use deadly force over someone else's carton of cigarettes, toaster oven, or etc?

Overall, I feel you did well.

 

[hyena]

Would have been none of my business.

What you witnessed is probably a daily occurrence for the manager.