Criticize me; Walmart shoplifting confrontation

[two-bit cowboy]

Posts of this sort are a good form of auxiliary training.

It's good to air out the basics and let them plant the seeds for all of us.

I'm trained, and I train. I'm rarely around the volume and diversity of a Walmart-sized crowd so I appreciate the refresher this sort of thread generates.

Bob

 

[Shield 9 WV]

My only question would be if you think you should have discreetly put a little more distance between the two of them and you, to give yourself a little more "reactionary distance" in case things went bad.

That is really on point, I appreciate the question.

Especially after reading the other comments I feel like I brought too much attention to myself by slowing down to stop and gawk. I also focused on the disturbance instead of my surroundings. Where was the second man, the partner?

Even though I didn't need a cart I wish now I would have moved towards the carts in the building. I could have watched things evolve in front of me a natural way. As you said, discretely with some distance.

There would have been nobody behind me. I would have had an exit directly behind me leading to the parking lot, to my right leading towards the inside of the store and left to the outside of the store.

I am not looking to get involved. I just want to make sure I know what's going on around me and to have exit options in mind.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

Most officers don't train live fire 3-4 times a year,

I appreciate that we have the one percent'ers on this board, the ones who live fire to become proficient with their tools. I am not at that level but I try to be competent.

He has situational awareness of his firearm, he's concerned about incidents surrounding him,

Yes. Nailed it.

and he knows how to use his firearm.

Not an expert, but yes.

Nothing he does on the range is going to make him much better at running up on a struggling duo to save one or the other . . [/QUOTE

Yes, again.

In that moment which took me by surprise I would have been much more concerned that a round might come whizzing my way from the perp and I wasn't paying attention. I had no intention of getting involved, didn't want to stop shoplifting or save the manager. I just wanted to be aware of my surroundings so I could make whatever the next best decision would be.

In my mind that starts with getting the heck out of Dodge when the trouble starts.

 

[dougb1946]

Most retail stores instruct their clerks to report and witness theft but to stay out of confrontation. Good rule to live by. If Wally world was really concerned, you would walk through scanners manned by serious people with weapons.

 

[Shield 9 WV]

Understood. I didn’t say you did anything wrong. It was a statement.

I sometimes use CAPS for emphasis, I didn't mean to yell.

I took your advice/comment in the most positive sense. Thanks!

 

[fredj338]

Sure, accessing the situation is the first step to deciding what to do next. Nothing but two guys arguing, move on or if you feel all mr involved, hang by & see what happens next. DO that a lot though & you never get anything done, people argue all the time.
AS to your readiness, IMO, you shoot 4-5x a year, you are not really ready for a gunfight. you might do fine with the unarmed mugger but gunfight, no. If ccw is important to you, then train & practice like it is. Me, once a month would be my skinny minimum, & it has to be dynamic practice, not flat range target practice. Just sayin.

 

[fredj338]

Bothers me too. But what are you going to do? Chase every “suspected” shoplifter you see?

Other people get paid to take them on. We pay higher prices for loss prevention personnel, surveillance, and product loss. And the problem still exists.

Correct, a terrible idea to intervene. You want to be mall security, then apply. I am not putting myself into a fist fight over BS when I am carrying a gun. Any confrontation becomes a protect the gun scenario. Don't be a Zimmerman is my rule. It's always about the gun when you ccw.

 

[Protected One]

About me:

I worry about what I call the Walmart scenario probably because I watch too many Youtube active self defense vids.

I worry about a Bad Guy With a Gun at Walmart and I might have to be the Good Guy With a Gun to prevent loss of life to others. We have never had this happen in my town but it is always on my mind because it's never happened until it happens.

Scenario: Went to Walmart carrying OWB at 3:00 position but completely concealed under a zippered hoodie, left unzipped. While shopping in the food aisle I saw a couple of unkempt guys in the store who seemed odd to me. You don't often see two dudes shopping and they seemed to be arguing, kind of barking at each other. I couldn't hear what they said.

I moved on with my shopping but I was aware of their presence and kept an eye on their movements. I got my food and left before they did.

I got back to car and forgot I needed some batteries so I went back in about 3 minutes later.

This is where I want criticism: As I went back into the store one of the guys I saw was being followed out of the door by a male store manager (I presume manager) who was arguing with him.

I slowed down as I went through the front door, nearly stopping as I watched the confrontation happen. I rubber necked in their direction obviously staring, almost coming to a stop instead of walking. I was aware of my surroundings and mentally searched out my Shield 9 but I didn't touch it.

It bothered me that I slowed down and was gawking at the men who were arguing, which was heated and angry, but not really loud. I kept on walking into the store, got my batteries and checked out.

As I was leaving, the manager walked back into the store with several boxes, like a blender sized box. The man he took them from was outside. I looked for him as left but could not find him.

I appreciate bluntness and honesty from you guys so please let me know what you think. it won't hurt my feelings because I can take constructive criticism. It helps me learn.

I think I could have handled that better. What say you?

-Dave

Dave
You never HAVE to be "the good guy with a gun to save the lives of others!" It's ALWAYS your option. If there were anything I would say you could "do better" it would be to get adjusted to the proper mindset in that regard. Carrying a firearm does not obligate you to be the defender of others - even in a legitimate lethal force situation...which this one CLEARLY was NOT. Committing that fact to your subconscious should be a priority for you

You specifically criticized yourself for "slowing down" as you re-entered the store. That's a perfectly normal thing to do. So is rubbernecking. What interest me MORE is how you answer the question - WHY did you slow down when re-entering?
If it was because your were fighting the impulse to inject yourself (and thus your gun) into the situation, then you are correct, you could have handled it better. But if, as I suspect, it was because you are human, and human nature kicked in causing you to slow then I say ....welcome to the club!

 

[bigggbbruce]

You did fine.. you were aware..

If a gun came out from the shoplifter you were there.

It didn't, go home and install the batteries you bought.

 

[flagman1776]

Overall, I think you did fine as the loud attention grabbing scene unfolded in front of you.
Things to do better... maybe taking a carriage in might have been a good idea... a non-lethal barrier of defense to put between you (or an innocent party) & an attacker. Keeping an eye on confrontation is natural... I might have been reluctant to turn my back to a hostile situation until safely away. I like the intervention of a phone to call 911 if things go South.
It's really easy to criticize in the cold clear light of day.

 

[WRA]

Avoidance is still your best option!

 

[Wise_A]

Aside from the rubbernecking, which you admit, I don't think you could have done any better. Your focus seems to be on avoidance, where it should be.

What's to complain about?

AS to your readiness, IMO, you shoot 4-5x a year, you are not really ready for a gunfight.

These dudes are ready for a gunfight:

The rest of us are not ready for a gunfight.

Is 4-5 times a year enough? Dunno. What I do know is that OP is honest about how often he practices, which is the first step towards not deluding oneself that they're somehow "ready" for a life-or-death struggle.

And, fun fact, 4-5 times a year is (a) as much as many people can muster with family/work obligations, limited range availability, etc, and (b) way more than the average CCWer puts into it.

 

[flagman1776]

I imagine most of the LEOs here remember the case of Mr Nice Guy Traffic Cop (described in a training course)... who was on a traffic trike (perhaps California?).
A dangerous person emerged at distance & approached the Traffic Cop shouting threats & armed with a knife. TC was confused since he'd done nothing to to trigger this event.
TC gets off the trike on the same side as his assailant & tries to reason with him as he closes the distance. The assailant attacks him, the TC goes for his 38 too late & dies with it in his holster.
It was suggested that getting off on the far side & using the trike as a barrier would have bought the TC reaction time.

This is my reasoning for suggesting a barrier like a shopping cart.

 

[hoc9sw]

This is my reasoning for suggesting a barrier like a shopping cart.

Some of us take the shopping cart so we can leave the cane in the car.

 

[RGVshooter]

I think I could have handled that better. What say you?
-Dave

I never understood why some people who are licensed to carry feel compelled in getting involved in unknown situations that do not involve them.


This is soooo easy......one.. you're not a cop, Two, leave it alone, walk away.

 

[LPD256]

I remember a video not long ago of a CCW holder confronting a shoplifter in the parking lot by brandishing his weapon towards a car load of people, and then firing shots as the shoplifters drove off. And I thought to myself Hmmmmm....what shoplifted item is worth 10 years in jail for an accidental manslaughter or negligent homicide. Can’t think of one...

 

[Shield 9 WV]

Dave
(respectful snip)

You specifically criticized yourself for "slowing down" as you re-entered the store. That's a perfectly normal thing to do.

It didn't feel normal once I became aware I was doing it. The only thing that was missing was my mouth hanging open and drool running down my chin.

So is rubbernecking. What interested me MORE is how you answer the question - WHY did you slow down when re-entering?

It was purely an emotional reaction, no rational thought whatsoever.

It became more thoughtful a few seconds later once I recognized the perp as the same guy I had "scanned" and made a mental note of a few minutes earlier, the first time I was in the store.

If it was because your were fighting the impulse to inject yourself (and thus your gun) into the situation, then you are correct, you could have handled it better.

I had zero impulse to inject myself, and zero thought to go for my gun. It was mostly mental as I tried to get my emotions out and my brain engaged.

The three reactions to fear are fight, flight and freeze.

Initially I froze and when I could make the transition to a rational decision, I choose to keep walking into the store while being mindful there was an active conflict going on between the perp and the store manager.

But if, as I suspect, it was because you are human, and human nature kicked in causing you to slow then I say ....welcome to the club! [/QUOTE

I suspect you are right. I just want to learn and be able to react better the next time.

The next time I'll still be aware of my surroundings but realize there is nothing about that 9 volt battery that was so important I couldn't immediately go back to my car and wait another ten minutes to go back in once things had settled.

And if things hadn't settled, that's what 911 is for and I am in a safe environment to exercise that option.

 

[flagman1776]

Any situation that you walk away from safe is a good outcome. It is good that you recognize that you were initially caught by surprise. You are determined to learn & improve from it & I commend you for that.

 

[Drm50]

Why people want to insert themselves into situations that are none of their business is beyond me. I CCW is a responsibility not a deputy badge. Not even close to a life threatening situation. I am amazed with the number of
CCWs today that there hasn't been more bad situations which will just fall into hands of anti gun people.

 

[pharmer]

..... Your focus seems to be on avoidance, where it should be.

Been carrying almost 40 years. Have witnessed all kinds of **** that was none of my business, folks slapping the **** out of their kids and such. Attended to what I was doing, pretended not to be watchin', headed for the house. Joe