CS10/CS40

I have no doubt that your conversion is fine, green02crew.

Please don't be bothered by the comments, many people fear what they don't understand.

John

John

Completely agree. I am just saying most people do not understand all that is involved in a conversion and therefore fear one done by someone they have no knowledge of. Therefore a hard sell.
 
What gives me pause here is the amount of metal removed and resulting thinning of the chamber wall to delete the original 40S&W roll mark. I can see by how the light is reflecting that the top of the chamber section is somewhat flattened where the new chambering mark is stamped in.

That barrel is essentially a pressure vessel and in 10mm Auto chambering we need it to contain pressure ranging from 33,000-37,500 psi. By comparison a common scuba tank is a 3000psi vessel that is periodically hydrostatically pressure tested to only 5000psi or 5/3 of max operating pressure once every five years.

That barrel is crafted of heat treated 410 stainless steel and while there is plenty of 'meat' to deepen the chamber a bit, one must be very careful NOT to do anything that would compromise the integrity of the chamber. That means NO thinning of the chamber walls by sanding, grinding or any other means, NO welding processes that ruin the heat treatment and anneal (soften) the metal in the heat affected zone, and NO introducing new stress risers with a mallet and stamp set.

Frankly, I don't think that barrel is particularly safe to fire. It very well may yet fire thousands of rounds or... It may catastrophically disassemble the very next time it's fired. I wouldn't shoot it.

Cheers
Bill
 
Isn't the barrel of a 4013TSW the same external diamete as a 6906? These conversion guns are made on the 45 frame and the barrel is a good bit thicker than the 4013TSW. The 40 S&W is running 35K PSI and seems to be safe in that thinner chamber. How much would have to be taken off one of these 4013/4053 on the 45 frame take to become dangerous? Assuming you haven't affected the heat treatment?

Just pondering..

I may be making an incorrect assumption, is the CS40 the same frame as the CS45 or is it smaller with a smaller diameter barrel?

Rosewood
 
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I may be making an incorrect assumption, is the CS40 the same frame as the CS45 or is it smaller with a smaller diameter barrel?

Rosewood

Same frame. Barrels and mags are interchangeable. I use unaltered CS45 mags as range mags in my CS10.
 
What gives me pause here is the amount of metal removed and resulting thinning of the chamber wall to delete the original 40S&W roll mark. I can see by how the light is reflecting that the top of the chamber section is somewhat flattened where the new chambering mark is stamped in.



That barrel is essentially a pressure vessel and in 10mm Auto chambering we need it to contain pressure ranging from 33,000-37,500 psi. By comparison a common scuba tank is a 3000psi vessel that is periodically hydrostatically pressure tested to only 5000psi or 5/3 of max operating pressure once every five years.



That barrel is crafted of heat treated 410 stainless steel and while there is plenty of 'meat' to deepen the chamber a bit, one must be very careful NOT to do anything that would compromise the integrity of the chamber. That means NO thinning of the chamber walls by sanding, grinding or any other means, NO welding processes that ruin the heat treatment and anneal (soften) the metal in the heat affected zone, and NO introducing new stress risers with a mallet and stamp set.



Frankly, I don't think that barrel is particularly safe to fire. It very well may yet fire thousands of rounds or... It may catastrophically disassemble the very next time it's fired. I wouldn't shoot it.



Cheers

Bill



I'm glad none of the manufacturers, to include S&W, use stamps on their barrels... Might weaken them.

35k-37.5k is only a 7% increase in pressure. That barrel is much more than capable of handling that pressure even if it has been touched up with emery cloth. Would the proper way be to weld fill it? That introduces heat to the steel. Heat is a killer, good thing guns don't get hot when your shoot them, might weaken the steel!

I would hate to see you engineering a wildcat round. You would take all the fun out of it!


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I'm glad none of the manufacturers, to include S&W, use stamps on their barrels... Might weaken them.

35k-37.5k is only a 7% increase in pressure. That barrel is much more than capable of handling that pressure even if it has been touched up with emery cloth. Would the proper way be to weld fill it? That introduces heat to the steel. Heat is a killer, good thing guns don't get hot when your shoot them, might weaken the steel!

I would hate to see you engineering a wildcat round. You would take all the fun out of it!

I respect your opinion but believe it is somewhat flawed.


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Manufacturers use roll marking machines, lately there is a move to high wattage CO2 laser etching, not a stamp set in sight.

Micro laser welding to fill in rollmarks without adversely affecting heat treatment.

New chambering applied by CNC laser engraving...
IMG_8117_1.jpg


Or...
IMG_2491.jpg


Best of luck in your sales effort.

Cheers
Bill
 
I'm glad none of the manufacturers, to include S&W, use stamps on their barrels... Might weaken them.

35k-37.5k is only a 7% increase in pressure. That barrel is much more than capable of handling that pressure even if it has been touched up with emery cloth. Would the proper way be to weld fill it? That introduces heat to the steel. Heat is a killer, good thing guns don't get hot when your shoot them, might weaken the steel!

I would hate to see you engineering a wildcat round. You would take all the fun out of it!


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You're pretty ignorant to BMCM's process. It would behoove you to ask more questions and make less assumptions. You're making a fool of yourself in short order.
 
Manufacturers use roll marking machines, lately there is a move to high wattage CO2 laser etching, not a stamp set in sight.



Micro laser welding to fill in rollmarks without adversely affecting heat treatment.



New chambering applied by CNC laser engraving...

IMG_8117_1.jpg




Or...

IMG_2491.jpg




Best of luck in your sales effort.



Cheers

Bill



Do you know what year they started using roll marking over stamping? Genuinely curious as an industry standard on barrel and parts lettering etc.


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You're pretty ignorant to BMCM's process. It would behoove you to ask more questions and make less assumptions. You're making a fool of yourself in short order.



Process?


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Just wanted to give an update. I actually brought the gun to a mechanical engineer today. I did not pay for an official "white paper" but I feel his notes are adequate. In the end he said "I'd shoot it".

38b0936f989fad143a43d09325087dd7.jpg



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Do you know what year they started using roll marking over stamping? Genuinely curious as an industry standard on barrel and parts lettering etc.

What year? No idea, Probably a couple hundred years ago or more. The process of marking round, cylindrical, octagonal or irregular parts with a rolling die has been around for ages. Anytime you want to impress a lot of info onto a barrel or part in a straight line to uniform depth, rollmarking has been the standard method for a very long time. Have a look at the barrel markings on a Volcanic pistol or a vintage Schofield or Colt peacemaker or any 19th century buffalo rifle or levergun, all rollmarked.

I understand Columbia Marking Machinery makes some of the rollmarking tooling/dies for S&W. They are just one example of the vast number of manufacturers worldwide supplying rollmarking machinery & dies.

Hand stamps are usually reserved for in house stuff or things like proof marks or acceptance marks like the old Ordnance Dept's flaming bomb symbol or the British Broad Arrow mark all over the place on UK ordnance equipment.

On S&W stuff the only time I note hand stamped numbers are on the PC 3rd gen guns where each has a bench assembly number stamped on the frame & slide then electro-penned on the barrel as these three parts are individually hand fit together. I also see bench numbers on some of the early TSW guns only on the slide & frame but I gather this step was later abandoned as new machinery was brought on line at the factory since you don't see it on the later production TSW guns. Aside front those examples you'll see various symbols, numbers & marks, usually in a hidden area, indicating stuff like a warranty repair or a factory re-finish and such.

Cheers
Bill
 
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So, now that the modification is deemed acceptable in this application, my 10mm stamp looks like ****, what's a rough value?


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On the broad market, customized guns (much like customized cars and motorcycles) tend to be no more or less valuable (in terms of desirability or selling price) than unmodified items in similar condition.

Look on GB for completed sales of CS40 pistols and that should give you a pretty good idea of what yours could bring, give or take a few dollars. (I think I've seen prices around $500.)

Good luck with your sale!

John
 
So, now that the modification is deemed acceptable in this application, my 10mm stamp looks like ****, what's a rough value?


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Honestly, I would think it would be in the same price range as a CS40 with no conversion ($400-450).
If selling on GB or Armslist, the buyer, if it were me, would be skeptical of a custom conversion unless I could personally put about 50+ rounds through it first before purchasing.
 
These conversion guns are made on the 45 frame and the barrel is a good bit thicker than the 4013TSW. The 40 S&W is running 35K PSI and seems to be safe in that thinner chamber. How much would have to be taken off one of these 4013/4053 on the 45 frame take to become dangerous? Assuming you haven't affected the heat treatment?

Correct, the 4013TSW barrels are not as robust as the 4013 barrels.

The 4013 chambers are ~.130" thick at their sides & the top runs ~.145" where the stamping is.

On a 10mm Auto S&W M610-3 revolver the chambers are .098" at their outside wall. At the cylinder notch (which is ~.038" deep), the cylinder's metal is ~.060" thick, the thinnest point.

I have no idea how the two metals in these handguns compare but if the 4013's metal is only half as strong as the 610's the 4013 would still be plenty strong after the removal of a few thousands of an inch, IMO.

The 40 S&W stamping on my 1013 conversion was very faint & I had/have no reservations concerning my removal of it.

I don't have any Chiefs Specials to compare them with so I can't say what differences they have thickness wise.

Per the 2015 SAAMI guide, there are no proof load pressures established for the 40 S&W or the 10mm Auto.

For cartridges over 21.1K psi there's a suggested 135% (median) multiplier.

A 40 S&W proof load might run ~47.25K psi & a 10mm Auto might run ~50.6K psi.

I think we've all found out that when we add features & customize something we rarely get our money back, as John also indicated. I don't plan on selling mine either.

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xlarge.jpg


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