DAO?
- Thread starter ghoffman
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This is a semi-auto pistol that is functionally very much like a double action revolver. It does not stay cocked after firing, requiring you to use a relatively long, relatively heavy trigger pull with each shot.
Roccaas
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It would be a hammer semiauto. The Stoeger Cougar is one.
Think of it like a DA only revolver. The trigger has to raise and drop the hammer on each trigger pull. The slide on recoil does not cock the hammer.
Strikers fired are a little harder to define as the slide does pre cock the striker on returning to battery, the trigger pull completing the striker cocking.
It usually comes down to feel, keeping all trigger pulls identical (DA only and striker fired) unlike DA then SA. DA only is going to be a little harder pull than the usual striker fired pull.
Think of it like a DA only revolver. The trigger has to raise and drop the hammer on each trigger pull. The slide on recoil does not cock the hammer.
Strikers fired are a little harder to define as the slide does pre cock the striker on returning to battery, the trigger pull completing the striker cocking.
It usually comes down to feel, keeping all trigger pulls identical (DA only and striker fired) unlike DA then SA. DA only is going to be a little harder pull than the usual striker fired pull.
Rastoff
US Veteran
Here is a little primer on trigger terminology:
The confusion comes with striker fired guns. Because we can't see what's going on inside, it's hard to realize what the trigger is really doing.
With a Glock, the striker is partially cocked when a round is racked into the chamber. As the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves the striker back approximately 1/6" more. Therefore, people mistakenly call it a DAO because of this action. It's really a single action because the trigger only performs one function; release the sear. Since it doesn't set the sear, it's still only one function even though it moves the striker back a little more. If the striker could be released, without moving it further, there is still enough force to fire the gun. There are safeties to prevent that.
The same goes for the M&P. Even though the motion of the sear will push the striker back an almost infinitesimally tiny amount, the trigger only does one thing; release the sear. It doesn't set the sear.
- Single Action (SA)- The trigger does only one thing, release the sear/hammer.
- Double Action (DA)- The trigger performs two functions, it cocks the hammer (sets the sear) and releases the hammer/sear. For most revolvers they can be fired either DA or SA if you manually cock the hammer.
- Double Action/Single Action (DA/SA)- This only applies to semi-autos. On the first shot, the trigger cocks and releases the hammer. On every subsequent shot, the trigger only releases the hammer. For most DA/SA pistols they can be fired SA if the hammer is cocked manually. Not all have this capability.
- Double Action Only(DAO)- The trigger cocks and releases the hammer on every shot. There are DAO revolvers and DAO semi-autos. With this variant, they cannot be fired SA. Hence the term double action only.
The confusion comes with striker fired guns. Because we can't see what's going on inside, it's hard to realize what the trigger is really doing.
With a Glock, the striker is partially cocked when a round is racked into the chamber. As the trigger is pulled, the trigger bar moves the striker back approximately 1/6" more. Therefore, people mistakenly call it a DAO because of this action. It's really a single action because the trigger only performs one function; release the sear. Since it doesn't set the sear, it's still only one function even though it moves the striker back a little more. If the striker could be released, without moving it further, there is still enough force to fire the gun. There are safeties to prevent that.
The same goes for the M&P. Even though the motion of the sear will push the striker back an almost infinitesimally tiny amount, the trigger only does one thing; release the sear. It doesn't set the sear.
Hey Rastoff......
Got it, thanks! If I can expect the FS M&P to feel similar to my Shield, I'm in! I was afraid that DAO meant 10 pounds of trigger pull. My problem is that the guys at my range are all Glock types and I can't find a Full Size M&P to shoot before I buy one. I think I'll go for it.
I wish they'd stop calling Striker Fire pistols DAO and just adopt it as an entity of its own... As it's not truly SA, but it's not truly DAO either, even if the trigger does move the striker a fraction of an inch.
If a pistol states the 'Action' as being Striker Fire (Double Action), consider it to be like a Glock, or an XD (or any other Striker Fire pistols you're familiar with).
If a pistol states the 'Action' as being Striker Fire (Double Action), consider it to be like a Glock, or an XD (or any other Striker Fire pistols you're familiar with).
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TexasRaider
Member
I might add a bit more here, depending on your final weapon choice, but the Sig DAK (Double Action Kellerman) is an awesome system. It's also galactically misunderstood.
Sig used to offer DAO triggers, and they were, to put it bluntly, horrendous. About 16 pound DA pull with more creep than a millennium's worth of continental drift, and required almost as much effort to move.
But around 2000 or so, I believe, they released a new type of trigger, the DAK. It remains about 6 pounds all the way through the pull, doesn't stack and is smooth as butter. The confusion comes in the 'reset' after the first shot is fired. Some claim it resets to about 8 pounds, but I've put probably 20K - 30K rounds through DAK pistols at work since we got them in 2004, and have seen none of that.
In fact, what I have seen is that the DAK 'shoots in' very well...the more rounds go through it, the noticeably better it gets.
Some FI's will say DAO's will prompt barrel dip or snapping, but that could be said of any pistol new to a newer shooter. Any single pistol requires time, patience and training to get the most out of it. I've shot other conventional DAO (S&W 3rd Gen, Beretta, Glock) and I highly prefer the DAK. Software is always superior to hardware.
DAK gives you the same single trigger pull from start to finish, the predictability of a revolver type mechanism that becomes very intuitive upon shooting frequently, and you get a restrike capability no striker fired gun can give you.
When it's truly understood, I think it's one of the best options out there. And used Sig DAK's have popped up as LEO trade in's for around $500 or so (CDNN had a bunch of them in .40 and .357 recently), so they're not bank breakers.
Just another $00.02 pitched in....
Sig used to offer DAO triggers, and they were, to put it bluntly, horrendous. About 16 pound DA pull with more creep than a millennium's worth of continental drift, and required almost as much effort to move.
But around 2000 or so, I believe, they released a new type of trigger, the DAK. It remains about 6 pounds all the way through the pull, doesn't stack and is smooth as butter. The confusion comes in the 'reset' after the first shot is fired. Some claim it resets to about 8 pounds, but I've put probably 20K - 30K rounds through DAK pistols at work since we got them in 2004, and have seen none of that.
In fact, what I have seen is that the DAK 'shoots in' very well...the more rounds go through it, the noticeably better it gets.
Some FI's will say DAO's will prompt barrel dip or snapping, but that could be said of any pistol new to a newer shooter. Any single pistol requires time, patience and training to get the most out of it. I've shot other conventional DAO (S&W 3rd Gen, Beretta, Glock) and I highly prefer the DAK. Software is always superior to hardware.
DAK gives you the same single trigger pull from start to finish, the predictability of a revolver type mechanism that becomes very intuitive upon shooting frequently, and you get a restrike capability no striker fired gun can give you.
When it's truly understood, I think it's one of the best options out there. And used Sig DAK's have popped up as LEO trade in's for around $500 or so (CDNN had a bunch of them in .40 and .357 recently), so they're not bank breakers.
Just another $00.02 pitched in....
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I'm very new to handguns, I bought a Shield 9 in July and I've become completely hooked and I would really like to get good. Anyway, my point is, I don't know a lot about this yet and I use this forum to learn as much as I can. My Shield is the only gun I've ever fired so you might have made a good point TexasRaider - maybe it is time I tried a Sig! I belong to a range that is owned by a couple of really helpful and professional local law enforcement officers and I'll talk to them about renting or otherwise shooting one. I'm sure they will help out. Thanks!!!
Yes, I specifically worded it that way because of that. We're talking about the striker moving back fractions of a millimeter. We're talking a necessity of any sear-to-hammer/striker engagement surface for safety and reliability. Even a straight up 90° face would bring the striker back as a simple artifact of the sear being rotated.
The reason S&W wants to call it a DAO is understandably a selling point to departments and entities. It's hard to believe such wool is so easy to pull, but calling it a SAO immediately takes it out of the running for probably most contracts they intended the gun for. I guess to the bean counters, only the literature matters and whatever goes on inside the gun is just unobservable magic.
Rastoff
US Veteran
There will always be those who choose to interpret some gun terminology in their own way. The discussion about what type of action striker fired guns are has, and will continue to rage throughout time.
ghoffman,
If I understand you correctly, your question is not really about what kind of action it has. What you're more concerned with is does a full size M&P have the same trigger as the Shield?
The answer to that question is, yes. However, for some reason the Shield seems to have a marginally better trigger than the full size guns. Even so, you won't be unhappy with the trigger on the full size gun.
ghoffman,
If I understand you correctly, your question is not really about what kind of action it has. What you're more concerned with is does a full size M&P have the same trigger as the Shield?
The answer to that question is, yes. However, for some reason the Shield seems to have a marginally better trigger than the full size guns. Even so, you won't be unhappy with the trigger on the full size gun.
Exactly Rastoff, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know the difference in these trigger systems. I definitely do want to know.
If you'll be in the store tomorrow to get some hands-on time, give these a feel and compare
M&P
Sig DAK
HK LEM
Kahr
Walther PPQ
Taurus TCP
Ruger Redhawk (Double action, pull trigger from hammer-down)
just a wide variety of trigger feels to cut your teeth on and 'know' what people on the net talk about when talking about trigger pulls.
M&P
Sig DAK
HK LEM
Kahr
Walther PPQ
Taurus TCP
Ruger Redhawk (Double action, pull trigger from hammer-down)
just a wide variety of trigger feels to cut your teeth on and 'know' what people on the net talk about when talking about trigger pulls.
Rastoff
US Veteran
What I have posted is the accepted definitions taught by the NRA and most pistol schools. As I said before, there will always be those who disagree on this subject.
What's more important is understanding how the triggers work. Here is a short video on the M&P trigger system:
The Glock trigger is different.
I actually went back and reviewed this video earlier this evening. You sent it in response to another question I posted a couple of weeks ago. Thanks again!
I've done some digging on the SIG DAK system...It has two resets, a short one with an 8 lbs pull and a long reset with a 6 lbs pull. I'm going to check one out tomorrow but after all I did to make the Shield shorter and lighter, I have a feeling I won't be leaving the M&P/Apex system anytime soon. Thanks for all you help Rastoff - I'm still not ready for you challenge, I can't hit the barn with my support hand yet!!!
Magload
US Veteran
I don't know if your Academy Sports is like the one here but they do not allow dry firing even with snap caps. All guns have their triggers locked and they will not unlock them. Don
Arik
Member
SRT trigger huh? Boy oh boy do I have a lot to learn!!!!! Wow!
TexasRaider
Member
He's right, that's a good option. The traditional Sig DA/SA got upgraded years ago with the Short Reset Trigger (SRT), which means once you pull the DA trigger and the weapon fires, the slide recoils and goes back into battery, leaving the hammer cocked. If you've kept the trigger pressed back the entire time this occurs, the reset to pull another shot is about 4mm, a very short clean break and "click" to fire the next round.
If you don't like the DAK, be sure to try a SIG SRT. Just make sure that when you dry fire it, keep the trigger pulled back against the frame, rack the slide and then see how short the reset is.
I have it on a M-11 Sig, and it makes shooting steel a lot of fun!
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Rastoff
US Veteran
I don't know about the SigSauer triggers, but I have an H&K with the LEM upgrade. Truly an amazing design and the best I've ever seen for a DAO.
The LEM is simply a DAO trigger. The difference is it keeps the main spring compressed just like a SA would with the hammer cocked. However, the hammer drops with the LEM. The trigger cocks the hammer every time, but it really just feels like a long take up. The take up part is about 1lb with a 4lb sear break.
It's a little weird the first time you shoot one, but so much better than every other DAO on the market.
The LEM is simply a DAO trigger. The difference is it keeps the main spring compressed just like a SA would with the hammer cocked. However, the hammer drops with the LEM. The trigger cocks the hammer every time, but it really just feels like a long take up. The take up part is about 1lb with a 4lb sear break.
It's a little weird the first time you shoot one, but so much better than every other DAO on the market.
Bounty
Member
Was a good descriptive post on the DAK trigger system until we got here. Several striker-fired guns have "restrike" capability including the Taurus PT-111G2, PT709, et al.
I've gotten into this deep over on the HK forums.
In my words, the LEM is a DA/SA without a decocker. Maybe that qualifies it to be a SA/DA like some Taurus guns, meant to be left in SA mode but will DA on a dud round/dry fire. The special feature is that it is a two part hammer, and the external part you see lowers as you let off the trigger. It placates the mind to shield you from the distress of seeing a cocked hammer, but is otherwise meaningless. It's as if you took a traditional DA/SA, and hinged the hammer so the top half can rest on the rear face of the slide while the lower half is still sitting on a fully cocked hammer spring. It's a hammer gun trying to be a striker gun- long light trigger pull until you release the fully cocked hammer/striker.
The only functional difference between an LEM and a traditional DA/SA (of the same gun) left in SA mode is less than half an inch of light trigger range, in that the LEM has the longer trigger pull.
I'm pretty much alone on this, but I find the LEM to be just as safe/dangerous as a DA/SA left in SA, because the only difference is less than half an inch of ~2lb trigger travel. Anything that would cause an ND in one, would cause it in the other.
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