Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
My first gun was a Remingtion Model 581 rifle purchased in 1967. No serial. That's why I had zero chance of getting it back when it was stolen in 1985.
DEFACED AND MISSING SERIAL NUMBERS
- Thread starter Kenny D
- Start date
Steelslaver, you maybe correct but my first assumption would be that you have the burden of proof and would be required to prove the serial number was removed prior to 1968. If what you say is correct than prosecuting anyone with a prior to 1968 defaced serial number would be next to impossible.
kwill1911
Member
I would not want to risk losing my right to own any guns to try to keep one dog with a defaced serial number.
Jim Watson
Member
Simple possession is illegal. Good luck with that ex post facto argument whilst paying your lawyer more per hour than you gave for the gun.
Somebody check me, I think HANDGUNS were required to have serial numbers by NFA/NFL since 1934. I have not seen even a cheap US made handgun without serial number.
Somebody check me, I think HANDGUNS were required to have serial numbers by NFA/NFL since 1934. I have not seen even a cheap US made handgun without serial number.
Marvin Gardens
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I was surprised one time when a normally reputable storefront dealer offered me what I saw to be a 1926 .44 special Target for $600. I looked at the gun and noticed that someone had taken a pin punch and obliterated the serial number on the butt to the point where it was maybe readable but really not. I told the dealer that the gun was illegal to possess. He said it was ok that we could run the DROS using the serial numbers on the cylinder and barrel. I told him to contact BATF and ask them before he did anything with the gun.
Maybe I should have bought it for parts and torched the frame but I am not one to go looking for more legal issues than I routinely had. I spent more time in court than I cared to anyway, so I passed.
I don't know what became of the gun.
Regards.
Bob
Maybe I should have bought it for parts and torched the frame but I am not one to go looking for more legal issues than I routinely had. I spent more time in court than I cared to anyway, so I passed.
I don't know what became of the gun.
Regards.
Bob
Marvin Gardens
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I would not want to risk losing my right to own any guns to try to keep one dog with a defaced serial number.
Thanks for posting this Kevin.
Regards.
Bob
They don't, but many pistols were manufactured with SN's before 1968. If it was so created, you can't deface or remove it. . .
The BATF may well hold that position, but, That doesn't necessarily make it so. Every year laws that have be used get proved to be unenforceable.
Notice that the law quoted says transport, ship, or receive such a gun that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. NO WHERE does it say posses. In other words you could not buy one, ship it. The transport part might get tricky. But, they would also have to prove it has been moved across state lines after the fact.
I wouldn't want to fight the fight, but, my lawyer fees would just add to my honey do list. LOL
Notice that the law quoted says transport, ship, or receive such a gun that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce. NO WHERE does it say posses. In other words you could not buy one, ship it. The transport part might get tricky. But, they would also have to prove it has been moved across state lines after the fact.
I wouldn't want to fight the fight, but, my lawyer fees would just add to my honey do list. LOL
I spent a lot of my career telling lawyers to turn the page. There's an "or" after the part you're talking about:
(k) It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to transport, ship, or receive, in interstate or foreign commerce, any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Here is 18 USC 922 in its entirety:
18 USC 922
That honey do list is gonna get mighty long . . .
I have arrested thugs for possession of a firearm with a defaced and/or removed serial number.
or to possess or receive any firearm which has had the importer's or manufacturer's serial number removed, obliterated, or altered and has, at any time, been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
Notice that I did address that. They would have to prove it was shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce after the fact. There is an and that comes after the removed, obliterated or altered. They could claim that that includes prior to the alteration, but, if said alteration and transportation occurred prior to 1968 that would still be covered by ex post facto. They can not make an act that occurred prior to the passing of the GCA of 1968 illegal no matter how much they want to.
I have read the complete law. I bet when you told lawyers to turn the page many of them found yet another page. My girl friend did research for a judge thats now on the state supreme court. She does know how it works.
Notice also that the Batf and GCA of 68 holds that I can not buy a hand gun in another state. But, that a Federal district judge in one jurisdiction recently held this to be unconstitutional. Should be interesting to see where that goes.
The law is seldom simple and it iss never really over very often.
Notice that I did address that. They would have to prove it was shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce after the fact. There is an and that comes after the removed, obliterated or altered. They could claim that that includes prior to the alteration, but, if said alteration and transportation occurred prior to 1968 that would still be covered by ex post facto. They can not make an act that occurred prior to the passing of the GCA of 1968 illegal no matter how much they want to.
I have read the complete law. I bet when you told lawyers to turn the page many of them found yet another page. My girl friend did research for a judge thats now on the state supreme court. She does know how it works.
Notice also that the Batf and GCA of 68 holds that I can not buy a hand gun in another state. But, that a Federal district judge in one jurisdiction recently held this to be unconstitutional. Should be interesting to see where that goes.
The law is seldom simple and it iss never really over very often.
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So, hypothetically, suppose a guy found himself to be in possession of a pre-1968 gun like this with part of the serial number on the butt defaced, but the other serial numbers were all intact and all matched. Suppose that guy were to buy a set of letter and number punches and re-stamp the original serial number on the side of the grip frame - exactly like a pre-1968 gunsmith would have done when making modifications to the gun. Then who would be able to say the modification wasn't made prior to 1968 when doing so was still legal?
Hypothetically it would be very difficult to say when it was done. Plus, it would still have the manufactures serial number on the gun. Nowhere does it say that the manufactures number had to stay in the original location. I don't think it would ever be a problem unless somebody was do do something stupid with the gun. I have shot with and against LEOs in various matches for years, ran into game wardens etc. I have never had one ask to see my serial number. Unless he has a legitimate reason its really none of his business. But, then I live in a place where people with guns are common and the police just don't take much interest in that or federal gun control.
I am not saying I want a gun with a messed up number and I wouldn't want to buy one. But, like the example the ops gives it could happen. If it was a pre 68 gun I would assume it was done legally prior to 68 and never give anyone any reason to check into it. Something with a ground off number or purposely marked out probably has a bad history.
Muley Gil, how many legitimate citizens have you arrested for this. How many's serial numbers have you checked?
I wonder just how many law abiding citizens have been troubled by this. There have been stories about them appearing at gun shows, LGS and the like and it would seem that if it was a problem this wouldn't happen. I get it that a gang banger , robber, drug dealer or the like is going to get busted for this. Where I liivee it would probably be a non issue with the local LEOs if your a citizen. Elsewhere who knows. Our governor proposed that a gun made in Montana and owned or sold in Montana didn't need a number because there was no interstate commerce involved and it was non of the Feds business. The BATF of course disagrees. If I ever make one I will stamp a JIM1 on it. Obviously letters are as good as numbers as many manufactures uses letters. In the Ops case he could say that obviously the previous owner re manufactured the gun and used the GC as part of the new serial number. Completely legal do do before 1968. I believe that the very worst that would happen if all other factors were legal that you would lose the gun. In a place like CA or NY your mileage may differ.
My brother had a nice old damascus shotgun stolen. The kids that stole it cut the barrels off to about 8". Obviously a federal felony. Did they go to jail for any of it? NO, they got a legal spanking and thats about it. Cops gave my brother back the action, but not the barrels.
I am not saying I want a gun with a messed up number and I wouldn't want to buy one. But, like the example the ops gives it could happen. If it was a pre 68 gun I would assume it was done legally prior to 68 and never give anyone any reason to check into it. Something with a ground off number or purposely marked out probably has a bad history.
Muley Gil, how many legitimate citizens have you arrested for this. How many's serial numbers have you checked?
I wonder just how many law abiding citizens have been troubled by this. There have been stories about them appearing at gun shows, LGS and the like and it would seem that if it was a problem this wouldn't happen. I get it that a gang banger , robber, drug dealer or the like is going to get busted for this. Where I liivee it would probably be a non issue with the local LEOs if your a citizen. Elsewhere who knows. Our governor proposed that a gun made in Montana and owned or sold in Montana didn't need a number because there was no interstate commerce involved and it was non of the Feds business. The BATF of course disagrees. If I ever make one I will stamp a JIM1 on it. Obviously letters are as good as numbers as many manufactures uses letters. In the Ops case he could say that obviously the previous owner re manufactured the gun and used the GC as part of the new serial number. Completely legal do do before 1968. I believe that the very worst that would happen if all other factors were legal that you would lose the gun. In a place like CA or NY your mileage may differ.
My brother had a nice old damascus shotgun stolen. The kids that stole it cut the barrels off to about 8". Obviously a federal felony. Did they go to jail for any of it? NO, they got a legal spanking and thats about it. Cops gave my brother back the action, but not the barrels.
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DWalt
Member
Prosecutors like to bring as many charges as possible against criminals. I'd suspect the missing/defaced SN charge would be used mainly as one of them in the event that someone arrested for another criminal act had such a gun, probably not so much otherwise. But you can never tell what charges an enthusiastic prosecutor might or might not bring.
DWalt
Member
One can debate the "Crime and Punishment" issues regarding gun SNs endlessly. But why would anyone want to take the risk associated with possessing such a gun? Lawyers are very expensive. If a gun doesn't have a legitimate SN, don't buy it. If you have one, you should probably dispose of it.
"a gun made prior to 1968 is not required to have a serial number"
NOT TRUE. Prior to 1968, serial numbers were not required on shotguns and rimfire rifles.
"They would have to prove it was shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce after the fact."
ALSO NOT TRUE. The law states "...has, at any time..." This does not mean after the fact. That is like saying that, for the BATF to have jurisdiction, a gun has to be transported across state lines after being used in a crime.
Bob
NOT TRUE. Prior to 1968, serial numbers were not required on shotguns and rimfire rifles.
"They would have to prove it was shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce after the fact."
ALSO NOT TRUE. The law states "...has, at any time..." This does not mean after the fact. That is like saying that, for the BATF to have jurisdiction, a gun has to be transported across state lines after being used in a crime.
Bob
handejector
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Most, if not all, STATES have laws making it illegal to possess ANYTHING with a removed or obliterated serial number.
They don't mention 1968.
Anything means anything-
cars
chain saws
drills
guitars
bicycles
TVs
piccolos
cell phones
blenders
motorcycles
....and even guns!
Is there a distinct advantage to doing time in a state pen versus a Fed pen?
They don't mention 1968.
Anything means anything-
cars
chain saws
drills
guitars
bicycles
TVs
piccolos
cell phones
blenders
motorcycles
....and even guns!
Is there a distinct advantage to doing time in a state pen versus a Fed pen?
handejector
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ex post facto-
Yeah, right.
They damn sure made a law ex post facto on domestic violence!
Look at the cops who lost their gun rights for an offense committed 20 years before the law.
Yeah, right.
They damn sure made a law ex post facto on domestic violence!
Look at the cops who lost their gun rights for an offense committed 20 years before the law.
You are very wrong again. If you receive a shotgun in your state that was manufactured in, let's say, North Haven, CT, and then you lop the barrel off to 12", that gun never leaves your state, and you or your cousin gets stopped with it on the front seat of his International, still in your state, you are in heap big trouble.
