DEFACED AND MISSING SERIAL NUMBERS

[Muss Muggins]

Our governor proposed that a gun made in Montana and owned or sold in Montana didn't need a number because there was no interstate commerce involved and it was non of the Feds business. The BATF of course disagrees.

You fella's make steel up in Montana? Do you also make the equipment to make steel? Does Montana manufacture all of the equipment that would be used to manufacture the firearms in Montana, using all Montana raw materials? Is the potential gun manufacturer's liability and property insurance company located solely in Montana, and do they only insure from a pool of Montana-owned companies? Will the potential gun manufacturer use a bank that is not FDIC insured? Will the potential gun manufacturer contribute to Social Security and Medicare on behalf of their employees? What currency will the proposed buyer use? If bartering, will the barter be a Montana product?

Stay down, man . . .

 

[BB57]

Have seen FFLs who didn't take the grips (rubber) off of an old M&P 38 and logged it in under the assembly number. Gun probably had a serial number but it might not of either.

You'll notice most rubber grips made for S&Ws have a slot in the bottom of the grip that almost allows you to read the SN. That's a token nod to not obscuring the serial number as the SN must be "conspicuously" displayed on the firearm.

Consequently it's not a coincidence that you'll find a serial number on the bottom of the grip frame, but also on the frame under the crane on S&W revolvers like the Model 19 and Model 15 made after 1968. The target grips would otherwise obscure a single serial number on the bottom of the grip frame. It's not exactly "conspicuous" under the crane, but at least you don't need tools to see it.

On older S&Ws like a pre-Model 10, you don't find the SN under the crane, and many FFL do in fact mistake the assembly number for the SN if the grips obscure the SN on the grip frame.

Those same pre-Model 10s will have the SN repeated on the bottom of the barrel above the ejector rod, but that doesn't count as the SN has to be on the 'receiver' (frame) of the revolver. The FFL then has to remove the grips to view the SN if the SN is obscured to be sure the numbers match.

-----

The vast majority of weapons violations are secondary to some other primary cause for a stop or search.

Unless the ATF gets a reliable tip they are not going to go looking for weapons violations. They, or local law enforcement, will however happily tack them on to other criminal charges when illegal weapons are found in the course of a traffic stop or other search.

That said, possession of the OP's revolver became illegal on 10-22-1968 as on that date it became illegal to possess a firearm with an obliterated serial number, even though it was legal to obliterate the SN prior to the implementation of GCA '68 on 10-22-1968.

 

[old tanker]

Some Remington Rolling Block rifles had the serial number stamped on the side of the upper tang visible only when the stock has been removed. My Marlin 27S has its serial number on the left side of the lower tang. Again, it is only visible with the butt removed. Both were listed on their respective 4473's as not having a serial when they were purchased. Lots of folks don't know where to look for a number. A mentioned earlier, ome number of big grip revolvers went through folks' books listed by the assembly number instead of the number on the butt.

 

[AlHunt]

Hold de phone, how do you buy a gun with no serial number?
Are you buying a vehicle with no VIN or title? Yea some 22 rifles did not have Sns. But somebody post a list of handguns with no Sns. I want an education. Dont want to start a fire fight.

Not all states require NICS checks on private transactions. So a gun floating around with a defaced or removed SN could easily change hands.

 

[Muley Gil]

"Muley Gil, how many legitimate citizens have you arrested for this. How many's serial numbers have you checked?"

"I have arrested thugs for possession of a firearm with a defaced and/or removed serial number."

I hope you read the wording of my post. Anyone that was commiting a crime and was carrying, had that weapon checked. Some got their guns back. Those with prior felonies or were being charged with felonies, didn't get them back. Some were returned to other family members when it turned out that the said firearm was "borrowed" without permission.

Once upon a time, I was on patrol with a reserve officer. We came up on a group of guys shooting in an old chert pit. Unfortunately, it was within the city limits and thus illegal. I informed them of that fact and recommended another place, out in the county, where they could shoot.
Didn't check any of the guns, though I could have. Could of made three arrests also, but why?

After they had left, the reserve told me that he had ridden with one of our less seasoned officers a few months back and that they had encountered the same situation and that she had blessed them out before letting them go. While no arrests were made in that incident, he had felt bad for the guys involved.

He preferred the way I handled our encounter.

 

[BB57]

My suggestion is to have someone either stamp or engrave the SN on the left side of the grip frame. A gunsmith might do it...or a pawn/jewelry shop. That should bring it into compliance. You could always call BATFE and ask.

That doesn't address the actual offense. The law precludes possession of a firearm with an obliterated serial number. Re-stamping it does not alter the fact that it was obliterated in the first place, and thus it is still illegal to possess, even if the SN was obliterated prior to 10-22-1968, when obliterating a SN became illegal.

Ah, but the government can not find you guilty in EX POST FACTO

EX POST FACTO, contracts, crim. law. This is a technical expression, which signifies, that something has been done after another thing, in relation to the latter.
2. An estate granted, may be made good or avoided by matter ex post facto, when an election is given to the party to accept or not to accept. 1 Co. 146.
3. The Constitution of the United States, art. 1, sec. 10, forbids the states to pass any ex post facto law; which has been defined to be one which renders the act punishable in a manner in which it was not punishable when it was committed. 6 Cranch, 138. This definition extends to laws passed after the act, and affecting a person by way of punishment of that act, either in his person or estate. 3 Dall. 386; 1 Blackf. Ind. R. 193 2 Pet. U. S. Rep. 413 1 Kent, Com. 408; Dane's Ab. Index, h.t.

In other words they would have to prove that the serial number was defaced after 1968. Plus, prior to 1968 you could legally remove a serial number and restamp it in another location if you waned. So, if the serial number was restamped even saying that the gun was illegal because it had no original serial number or an altered one would be a no go. As a mater of fact the gun has always had a serial number, just not the original one. Prior to 1968 there was no law against changing serial numbers either. I believe, as does my lady lawyer (we had this discussion) that the government would have a very difficult time prosecuting you on a gun like this manufactured prior to 1968. It might be a hassle, but unless they could prove that the alteration happened after 1968 you would win out in the end. I would get grips that covered the butt and KEEP MY MOUTH SHUT.

Your legal argument is flawed in a few respects:

1) Yes, it was legal to obliterate or move serial number prior to 10-22-1968 when GCA took effect, and that was often done for legitimate reasons - such as moving the SN for aesthetic reasons on an engraved receiver.

However, with the implementation of GCA '68 possession of those firearms became illegal. You are entirely correct that they'd have to prove the obliteration of the SN occurred after 10-22-1968 (which would be very hard to do) and prove you had possession of it at the time it was obliterated in order to charge you with obliterating a serial number.

2) However, possession is not an ex post facto offense as the possession can occur at any time after 10-22-1968. Possessing it on 10-22-1968 was illegal even if the owner possessed it legally on 10-21-1968 - and possession is still illegal today.

3) It's been argued that the possession aspect of the resulted in a "taking" as the owners of these now illegal firearms had no recourse to legal sell or transfer them, grandfather them in with their moved or altered SNs, or even keep them for their personal intended use.

Those legal arguments however have never been successful. The Fifth Amendment prevents the government from taking private property for public use without providing the owner with just compensation. As is applicable in this case, "takings" are not limited solely to physical confiscation, but can stem from regulations which leave owners with no alternative use for their property, or a severe diminution in value.

However, in order for the taking to require compensation, it must also be for "public use". Public use however has additionally been narrowly construed in prior court rulings and the courts have made a distinction between "active public use" and "passive public benefit".

Unfortunately, although the GCA restrictions were claimed by congress to be enacted for the benefit of the public (the anti-gun public apparently) the restrictions did not intend to initiate active public use. GCA '68 was enacted under Congress' enumerated powers over interstate commerce and that action under the commerce clause has been confirmed by the Court as valid. The end result here is that the GCA '68 regulations do not constitute a compensable taking under the Fifth Amendment.

 

[BB57]

Not all states require NICS checks on private transactions. So a gun floating around with a defaced SN could easily change hands.

It can "easily" change hands, but it cannot "legally" change hands, nor can it legally be possessed.

 

[BB57]

ex post facto-

Yeah, right.
They damn sure made a law ex post facto on domestic violence!
Look at the cops who lost their gun rights for an offense committed 20 years before the law.

That's actually not an example of an ex post facto offense.

They were charged an convicted under a domestic violence statute or ordinance because there WAS a domestic violence statute or ordinance to be violated.

Ex post facto would be deciding that because you beat your wife 5 years ago and a law against it was passed yesterday that you should be charged and convicted of domestic violence.

In this case, what changed was the law regarding the definition of a prohibited individual. The definition was expanded to include certain individuals convicted of certain offenses, including domestic violence.

Personally, I have zero sympathy for LEOs who lost guns or even jobs due to that change in the definition. I'm a little old school maybe but if someone is going to be an LEO he or she needs to conduct yourself accordingly and be cleaner than the citizens he or she is expecting to uphold the laws he or she is enforcing.

A conviction under a domestic violence statute also suggests some psychological issues and/or impulse control issues and/or maturity issues, and/or really poor judgement - all of which clearly indicate the individual should not be carrying a badge and a gun and interacting with people in highly stressful situations.

Those officers, while comparatively small in the overall percentage are the officers that give the rest a bad name and generate the vast majority of bad press.

 

[steelslaver]

You are very wrong again. If you receive a shotgun in your state that was manufactured in, let's say, North Haven, CT, and then you lop the barrel off to 12", that gun never leaves your state, and you or your cousin gets stopped with it on the front seat of his International, still in your state, you are in heap big trouble.

There is a law against sawed off shotguns and it has nothing to do with transportation. The case above has little to do about interstate transportation or serial numbers. Now if the shotgun was made and cut off before 1968 you might have some kind of a case.

No Montana does not make quantities of steel, but, ask a judge where a Smith and Wesson was Manufactured and produced and he isn't going to say Pittsburgh.

If I buy a billet of steel from a local supplier and make it into a gun where did I engage in interstate commerce? OK, I got the lathe and mill and tooling off a local Craig's list add.

The reason we have so many lawyers is because they can argue the fine points to the end of time.

For a bunch of 2 Amendment guys there are a lot of people here arguing for the BATF.

I did say I wouldn't make an effort to acquire such a gun. But, I do have a 1917 frame I am going to round butt. Serial number is in the way. My solution is I will cut it loose and and reweld it back in a new location. I could do it in such a manner that it is never completely detached. You could argue that I am altering the manufactures serial number after all what would stop me from trading serial numbers on 2 1917s and how would you prove it. I am not going to lose a minutes sleep over it.

If I was to restamp a serial number on a gun, the serial number would not be altered as it remains the same number, hence the manufactures serial number was never altered or obliterated. The manufactures serial number still remains on the gun. No where does it say the manufactures original stamping of the number, just the number. If I alter the gun in some way do I become one who remanufacture it? Remember the argument about Montana making steel? Did US steel manufacture the gun or did S&W? The steel supplier most likely had a heat number on the billet, is S&W guilty of a felony because they altered or obliterated a serial number on a "gun part"? If I mill out an AR 15 frame did I manufacture it or did the aluminum supplier, How about the place I send it to to have it precipitation hardened. If I drop my gun and put a dent in the serial number is it now a felony to own it. How much obliteration does it take. Does a light polishing for reblue cause this because it partially obliterates the number. Can I restamp or recut the original stampings to redefine them? How much wear can there be on said stampings? Even if I were to file them off I could make them reappear by using something like ferric chloride, so were they "really" gone? Define removed for the court please. Where does it say in the law that the butt number counts, but the one in the yoke cut out doesn't. When I bought my pre model Highway Patrolman at what point was I informed that the number on the butt was the serial number and the one in the yoke cut out wasn't? I have had to correct FFL holders on this issue 3 separate time. I'll bet the majority of present day LEOS don't know that the number in the crane cut on pre model S&Ws is not the serial number. LOL
All this is ripe for legal discussion.

Show me the case law where this kind of stuff has been decided by a judge. Then, remember that a federal judge's decision in say the 9th district is not binding on a judge in another district.

To me this is all just a theoretical discussion. I find it entertaining. My girlfriend says I am very good at it and it is what keeps lots of lawyers and legal researchers employed.

Ex post Facto has little to do with domestic violence. Domestic violence was a crime when it was committed. It was not a made a crime when it was added to the list of those who could not own a gun.

Once again I don't want a gun with a messed up serial number. If I had one I would be very careful with it, but I wouldn't worry about anybody breaking my door down or sending me to prison over it. I might be temped to completely remove messed up number and restamp it and reblue, but not worth my time and I have lots of grinders, polishers, stamps and even a small bluing tank.

I certainly would not announce it on the internet.

 

[Muss Muggins]

There is a law against sawed off shotguns and it has nothing to do with transportation. The case above has little to do about interstate transportation or serial numbers. Now if the shotgun was made and cut off before 1968 you might have some kind of a case.

No Montana does not make quantities of steel, but, ask a judge where a Smith and Wesson was Manufactured and produced and he isn't going to say Pittsburgh.

If I buy a billet of steel from a local supplier and make it into a gun where did I engage in interstate commerce? OK, I got the lathe and mill and tooling off a local Craig's list add.

But ask yourself "Why does the federal government get to interject itself into the length of a shotgun barrel to begin with?"

The answer: "Because the shotgun impacts interstate commerce."

As for your steel answer, all of the questions I posed about banking, insurance and Social Security are relevant to the discussion. And the federal government has been known to say the firearm's steel originated in Pittsburgh. It's how a S&W made in MA that remains in MA is still a federal issue. There is nothing that we do that does not in some way affect interstate commerce. The federal government rarely goes to great lengths to prove that fact, because they generally don't have to. When they do have to prove it, in matters of great concern to them, they dive in with both feet, and usually win.

I am personally aware of a case, which resulted in three convictions, wherein the federal government interjected its jurisidiction into an assault of a minority family by three white supremecists at a state park because the toilet paper used at the latrine in the parking lot where the assault occurred, although manufactured in Missouri, was shipped to Cincinnati, Ohio and back, thereby proving that the state park property was involved in interstate commerce. This fact was cited in the indictment.

Stay down, man . . .

 

[flintsghost]

One thing to keep in mind, is back in the day when all N frames were square butt's there were a lot of people making pretty gun money to round butt the guns and shorten the barrels. John Jovino and 300 Gunsmith Service come to mind. There were many smiths doing that work at the time. Anytime one round butts a square butt frame the number on the butt will have some portion ground off. The number was always restamped to be complete. In many cases with later guns the number also existed inside the crane on the frame. BATF nor anyone else got excited about this and both the method and facts of doing it were published in magazines, books etc. Technically when the number was ground off in the work, even partially a crime may have been committed but when it was restamped it was treated as no harm no foul.

 

[steelslaver]

Stay down, man . . .

Never happen I enjoy playing the devils advocate to much

Main point of this whole thing is avoid owning guns with seriously messed up numbers, but as a law abiding citizen you would actually have little to fear unless you do something dumb.

I content that unless something else is going on or you have a over zealous cop and prosecutor the worst that is going to happen is the gun goes bye bye.

 

[BB57]

I did say I wouldn't make an effort to acquire such a gun. But, I do have a 1917 frame I am going to round butt. Serial number is in the way. My solution is I will cut it loose and and reweld it back in a new location. I could do it in such a manner that it is never completely detached. You could argue that I am altering the manufactures serial number after all what would stop me from trading serial numbers on 2 1917s and how would you prove it. I am not going to lose a minutes sleep over it.

There's a gentlemen sitting in prison right now for doing exactly that on Class III weapons. In essence, he made the argument that the bit of metal with the serial number was effectively the receiver. He was taking that serial numbered portion of worn out full auto receivers and welding it into a cut out in another receiver, that he then modified to full auto configuration. The ATF disagreed and successfully prosecuted him.

You'll generally find that ATF uses a very narrow interpretation of the statute and their interpretation is important, as the "law" does not consist solely of the statute, but also the implementing regulations AND any sub regulatory guidance, such as ATF letters.

You're certainly free to take a more liberal interpretation of the law, but you do so at your own peril.

If you want to risk going to jail over the conversion of a 1917 to a round butt configuration, go ahead, but that's farm animal stupid.

If I was to restamp a serial number on a gun, the serial number would not be altered as it remains the same number, hence the manufactures serial number was never altered or obliterated. The manufactures serial number still remains on the gun. No where does it say the manufactures original stamping of the number, just the number. If I alter the gun in some way do I become one who remanufacture it?

You pointed out the flaw in your own logic. "Alter" is different from "obliterate". There is also the use of "or" rather than "and", so either element is sufficient to constitute a violation of the law. If you are obliterating part of the original serial number (such as if you were to grind a portion of it off when modifying a square butt to a round butt configuration), you are altering it by truncating it, and even if you re-stamp the serial somewhere else, you've still obliterated the original number.

Now...if the revolver also has a complete and original serial number (not an assembly number) on the frame, you're still arguably good to go (in agreement with a portion of your comment below).

As to your re-manufacture comment, there really isn't any such animal (ask Mr. Full auto Receiver as noted above) as the receiver is the firearm, and it isn't eligible to be re- manufactured".

As a aside, it does get interesting though, as if you do a little research into import requirements you'll discover importers have to stamp their name and address on the receiver, along with a new, unique SN. If they want to use the old SN as their SN for import purposes, they have to apply for a variance. And they still can't alter or obliterate the original SN.

How much wear can there be on said stampings? Even if I were to file them off I could make them reappear by using something like ferric chloride, so were they "really" gone? Define removed for the court please. Where does it say in the law that the butt number counts, but the one in the yoke cut out doesn't. When I bought my pre model Highway Patrolman at what point was I informed that the number on the butt was the serial number and the one in the yoke cut out wasn't?

The term "conspicuous" is used and at some point it's open to interpretation whether the number is still conspicuous. If you have to get forensic involved to trace a faint SN, it's clearly no longer "conspicuous". It's certainly an issue for discussion when it comes to refinishing firearms.

Once again I don't want a gun with a messed up serial number. If I had one I would be very careful with it, but I wouldn't worry about anybody breaking my door down or sending me to prison over it. I might be temped to completely remove messed up number and restamp it and reblue, but not worth my time and I have lots of grinders, polishers, stamps and even a small bluing tank.

I certainly would not announce it on the internet.

Stamping a number by hand will usually look different than one that is stamped or roll marked at the factory, particularly when a specific font is used by the factory. A very skilled forger could probably pull it off, but even a better than average gunsmith isn't going to be able to replicate an SN that would pass anything other than very casual inspection.

 

[BB57]

One thing to keep in mind, is back in the day when all N frames were square butt's there were a lot of people making pretty gun money to round butt the guns and shorten the barrels. John Jovino and 300 Gunsmith Service come to mind. There were many smiths doing that work at the time. Anytime one round butts a square butt frame the number on the butt will have some portion ground off. The number was always restamped to be complete. In many cases with later guns the number also existed inside the crane on the frame. BATF nor anyone else got excited about this and both the method and facts of doing it were published in magazines, books etc. Technically when the number was ground off in the work, even partially a crime may have been committed but when it was restamped it was treated as no harm no foul.

The problem is that ATF interpretation can change over time and what was not prosecuted in the past isn't always a good indicator of what may be prosecuted now.

For example consider the wrist braces for AK-47 pistols, etc. At one point the ATF was fine with these being used in any manner the shooter saw fit as the constructional intent was to produce a pistol.

However after a large number of numb nut shooters sent in letters asking if they could use these to build an SBR without needing a tax stamp ATF backed water and basically said using one in any manner other than intended was a violation of the law. The difference is that way too many stupid shooters who felt compelled to ask a stupid question succeeded in making the point that these wrist braces were being installed on AK -47 pistols for the express intent of creating an SBR.

Stupid people are one of the major causes of eventual government over reach.

Whether it will continue to be something that is considered to be " no harm no foul" depends on the extent to which it starts to be viewed as a problem. If the practice starts to be used in ways that are perceived as violating the intent of then law, then ATF will step on it.

 

[Jim Watson]

Stop me if you have heard this one before.

A knowledgeable friend worked at the local pawn and gun.
When a customer brought in a "scrubbed" K38 he went ahead and loaned the guy some money on it, then called the police and BATF as soon as he left. I do not know what happened to the customer after that.

But we followed the gun. My friend pointed out a serial number location that the offender had missed, and the revolver was returned to the owner it had been stolen from with an authorized restamped serial number.
That was a good many years ago. Would the authorities be so accommodating now and does their 2002 policy still apply?


Personally, I think the Commerce Clause has been stretched beyond its original intent in order to bring more power to the central government.
Remember the old remark "Don't make a Federal case out of it?" That seems to be the whole objective of our present government.
But they didn't ask me.

 

[Absalom]

Does anyone seriously believe that the government is going to come after this ancient revolver unless it was involved in a crime?
.....

Some people seriously believe so, others don't, no one has any real-life evidence. The usual for threads about this. That BATF letter does nothing but quote the law and tell you that of course you aren't allowed to break it. Whoop-de-doo.

Life is full of risks. Acquiring a gun like that is unwise. If you find yourself with one through circumstances, especially in a case like the one described here where there may be a non-criminal explanation (we've had much more blatant cases here where someone carefully attempted to remove ALL original serial numbers), it comes down to your judgment. Yes, you can construct scenarios where possessing the gun might get you in trouble. You can also get smashed by an engine falling off an airliner passing overhead.

 

[2152hq]

Ser#'s were required on all firearms (except 22rf long guns and any shotgun) at least since the Federal Firearms act of 1938.
That law also made it a felony to remove, alter,ect the manufacturers applied ser# or possess, transfer a firearm with same.
Up to that time, places like G&H advertised they would build your '03 sporter and part of the process was to remove the US markings and ser# from the recv'r ring and either matte the surface or engrave it.
After the '38 law they advised they could no longer supply that service.

FFA '38 established the FFL system also.
It was all set up under the the Commerce & Trade US Code.(Title 15?)
Thats where all the interstate language comes from.

When the 68GCA was written, it was eccentialy a re-write and updated FFA'38 with a the biggest change of placing it under Title 10 US Code.
(It's difficult to find a copy of the FFA38. It still has a place listing under Title 15 , but when you click on it it just gives you a link to the current Title 10 GCA68 law and updates.)

Under GCA68, added was language that 22rf long guns and all shotguns would require manufacturers applied serial numbers.
So at that point all guns mfg in the US and all guns imported required a ser#.
Any 22rf long guns or shotguns made prior to GCA68 w/o a manufacturers ser# are listed in a FFL's book as 'NSN' (No Ser Number).
FFL's are instructed to contact BATFE when a gun w/an altered, removed, obliterated serial number comes into their hands.

A couple years back I recall a Ross Rifle Sporter w/a removed # was confiscated by BATF when it showed up for transfer at an FFL.
I can only guess that the person that sent it was visited.

 

[CelticSire]

A conviction under a domestic violence statute also suggests some psychological issues and/or impulse control issues and/or maturity issues, and/or really poor judgement - all of which clearly indicate the individual should not be carrying a badge and a gun and interacting with people in highly stressful situations.

A scenario for you to consider. You and your old college roommate are at your 20 year reunion. He's had a little too much to drink and says something inappropriate to your wife. You step in between him and her, read him the riot act about being insulting to your wife, and when you do, your hand brushes his hand. He's embarrassed and upset about being called out in public. He calls the cops, says that he found your contact offensive, and because you two used to live together, you have now committed assault by contact, domestic violence. Far fetched? Not at all. I've seen that exact case prosecuted and convicted. The law is blind, not fair.

 

[EdnAZ]

Your Definitive Answer

I apologize, I have not read everyone post; at a certain point it becomes the same old stuff....

To give everyone a definitive answer, whether you like it or not:

I have arrested (and convicted) people for possessing a firearm with an obliterated serial number. I absolutely will seize every firearm that I encounter with an obliterated serial number. If I have probable cause to believe that you possess a firearm (illegally) at your residence with an obliterated serial number, I will apply for and execute a search warrant on your residence.

Pretty straightforward.

 

[EdnAZ]

A scenario for you to consider. You and your old college roommate are at your 20 year reunion. He's had a little too much to drink and says something inappropriate to your wife. You step in between him and her, read him the riot act about being insulting to your wife, and when you do, your hand brushes his hand. He's embarrassed and upset about being called out in public. He calls the cops, says that he found your contact offensive, and because you two used to live together, you have now committed assault by contact, domestic violence. Far fetched? Not at all. I've seen that exact case prosecuted and convicted. The law is blind, not fair.

That scenario as you outlined is patently false. A former roommate is not amongst the defined protected classes under Texas law for "domestic violence".

Urban Legend or the retelling of the tale is far inaccurate.