I've had several conversations with Jakeway as well. He was in the same Company of the 82nd as my cousin and knew my cousin well. Quite an interesting guy. My cousin died during Market Garden, earning the Silver Star.
Did he kill all those Germans?
- Thread starter butchd
- Start date
I've had several conversations with Jakeway as well. He was in the same Company of the 82nd as my cousin and knew my cousin well. Quite an interesting guy. My cousin died during Market Garden, earning the Silver Star.
I know of one particular gentleman who was assigned to guard three prisoners after his unit had taken a small village. The Germans counter attacked and he was told he was needed on the line and to take care of the prisoners. He couldn't just let them go as they knew the (small) number and disposition of his unit's troops, and he couldn't risk leaving them tied up in their rear. So he took care of them. It was a cruddy deal for the prisoners, but sometimes that's just how it is.
It was a cruddy deal for him as well. Technically, it was a war crime. In reality it's one of those ethical dilemmas that troops in combat face in the real world.
----
While we're on the subject, it's also a war crime to shoot prisoners who are attempting to surrender. As soon as they throw up their hands or try to surrender, they become non-combatants.
Last edited:
I genuinely believe that time stands still on this forum, or maybe when we log-in there is a blip in the space/time continuum, or maybe it acts as a portal or time machine. It never ceases to amaze me how we can go seamlessly from February 4, 2010 (Post 36) to today (post 37) like the past decade never happened!
I think the quality of the posts and subjects here are perhaps timeless.
I think the quality of the posts and subjects here are perhaps timeless.
My father was drafted into Wehrmacht in June 1944 and captured by the Americans near Metz in October, 1944. He told me that the Americans tended to treat the regular German army soldiers well but not the SS. He wouldn't talk about the front lines but he would open up about the POW camp. One story he told had an SS soldier trying to hide in among other POWs in their barracks. The Germans actually ratted the SS guy out. Three Army MPs came into the barracks and drug the SS man out and took him just out of sight. Then he received 45 a.c.p. justice. Gave the prisoners something to think about.
About a year ago I was looking through some Life Magazine archives when I found some pictures by well known war photographer Ralph Morse titled "The Fall of Metz." The second to last picture showed German POWs being marched off to the POW camp. On the front row, second from the right holding his coat's lapels is my father, what luck!!! Emailed the picture to my 82 year old cousin Ilse in Germany who lived with my father's family before and after the war and she said there was no doubt it was my dad.
About a year ago I was looking through some Life Magazine archives when I found some pictures by well known war photographer Ralph Morse titled "The Fall of Metz." The second to last picture showed German POWs being marched off to the POW camp. On the front row, second from the right holding his coat's lapels is my father, what luck!!! Emailed the picture to my 82 year old cousin Ilse in Germany who lived with my father's family before and after the war and she said there was no doubt it was my dad.
Attachments
Seems one episode Band of Brothers it was said he shot them in the legs but it has been a while since I've watched it . My dad was in Battle of the Bulge and told very few Germans taken prisoner after US soldiers were massacred, he also had never ending stories and nightmares till he passed 2004
Last edited:
There was an old German gentleman in our church who was drafted into the Wehrmacht and captured at the end of the war. He came to the US in the late 1940s, and was asked if he would serve in the US military if called. Thinking it just a formality, he agreed, and a few years later found himself drafted into the US Army and in Korea.
Interesting fellow to talk with.
Interesting fellow to talk with.
There was a soldier in US Special Forces (later killed in Vietnam) who served in the "SS" against the Russians during WWII. His name was Lauri Torni and he was a fine soldier (according to my friends who knew him) and was a Captain at the time of his death.
He had been awarded the Iron Cross during service in WWII but I'm quite sure was never allowed to wear it on his US uniform. He was Finnish and hated the Russians.
He had been awarded the Iron Cross during service in WWII but I'm quite sure was never allowed to wear it on his US uniform. He was Finnish and hated the Russians.
I first learned of this story here, in this tread. TIP OF THE SPEAR
Anyone who doubts the old saying that the truth is stranger than fiction, need only to google and read about this man.
Texas Star
US Veteran
I saw a documentary last night about the war in Burma.
British troops found a scene where their wounded and the medical orderlies were massacred by Japanese, being horribly mutilated. After, Japanese were seldom taken alive.
Brigadier John Masters, DSO, etc. moved to the USA after the war and became a famous author. His basic regiment was the 4th Gurkha Rifles.
He wrote in his autobiography that after seeing various Jap atrocities, he had no more regard for them than if he was stepping on roaches.
He cited the case of a young Lt. who reported his casualties to HQ in India. He mentioned some men "Captured, presumed killed."
Told by a superior officer that there was no such category, he replied, "Sir, we are fighting the Japanese."
British troops found a scene where their wounded and the medical orderlies were massacred by Japanese, being horribly mutilated. After, Japanese were seldom taken alive.
Brigadier John Masters, DSO, etc. moved to the USA after the war and became a famous author. His basic regiment was the 4th Gurkha Rifles.
He wrote in his autobiography that after seeing various Jap atrocities, he had no more regard for them than if he was stepping on roaches.
He cited the case of a young Lt. who reported his casualties to HQ in India. He mentioned some men "Captured, presumed killed."
Told by a superior officer that there was no such category, he replied, "Sir, we are fighting the Japanese."
Last edited:
Absalom
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I didn't read the entire old thread in detail. So, sorry if I'm duplicating some observations:
World War II had moral dimensions that made the whole thing much more complicated than the comforting platitudes about "the good war".
The two main enemy nations Germany and Japan committed unspeakable crimes, and in both cases the military forces were fully implicated.
The US and Britain courted as their main ally a nation, and leader who was a mass murderer himself and who for two years had been Hitler's partner-in-crime in the rape of Eastern Europe and had supported the Wehrmacht's conquests with oil and raw materials.
And many of the conflicts, particularly the German war in the East, the Japanese conquest of other Asian peoples, and the American fight against the Japanese, had ethnic dimensions which made individual treatment of the enemy, including prisoners, diverge quite a bit from the Geneva and Hague conventions.
So right from the start, Germans killed Poles and Russians, Japanese killed Chinese, and Americans killed Japanese, including prisoners, with considerably less concern.
But by the time of major ground combat in Western Europe in 1944/45, the time of "Band of Brothers", this general attitude seems to have spread even to the fight between armies who did not consider the respective enemy "subhuman". The war on the Western front never attained the large-scale ugliness of other theaters; mass executions in cold blood of prisoners by the SS like at Malmedy were exceptions. Nothing comparable is actually documented from the Allied side; but as various earlier posts relate, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that in the heat of battle or right after, ethical behavior became optional or at least contingent upon the on-scene officers' and NCOs' decisions what to stop or encourage.
World War II had moral dimensions that made the whole thing much more complicated than the comforting platitudes about "the good war".
The two main enemy nations Germany and Japan committed unspeakable crimes, and in both cases the military forces were fully implicated.
The US and Britain courted as their main ally a nation, and leader who was a mass murderer himself and who for two years had been Hitler's partner-in-crime in the rape of Eastern Europe and had supported the Wehrmacht's conquests with oil and raw materials.
And many of the conflicts, particularly the German war in the East, the Japanese conquest of other Asian peoples, and the American fight against the Japanese, had ethnic dimensions which made individual treatment of the enemy, including prisoners, diverge quite a bit from the Geneva and Hague conventions.
So right from the start, Germans killed Poles and Russians, Japanese killed Chinese, and Americans killed Japanese, including prisoners, with considerably less concern.
But by the time of major ground combat in Western Europe in 1944/45, the time of "Band of Brothers", this general attitude seems to have spread even to the fight between armies who did not consider the respective enemy "subhuman". The war on the Western front never attained the large-scale ugliness of other theaters; mass executions in cold blood of prisoners by the SS like at Malmedy were exceptions. Nothing comparable is actually documented from the Allied side; but as various earlier posts relate, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that in the heat of battle or right after, ethical behavior became optional or at least contingent upon the on-scene officers' and NCOs' decisions what to stop or encourage.
Targets Guy
US Veteran
War is hell. Combat is murder. That's how I was taught. My great-grandfather accompanied Gen Sherman on his trip to Savannah from Atlanta.
Last edited:
UncleEd
Member
Years ago a veteran told me that when the Germans
yelled "kamerad,," the Americans would yell back
"Ja, kamerad! Hande hoch!" And if the Germans
came with hands up they would shoot them.
BearBio
Member
In 1971, I was supposed to go to the Air Cav. A friend of mine was Co. Clerk. He had gone to a rival high school and even pledged the same fraternity as I did. Our wives knew each other from H.S. He had been hit his first night in "Nam with the Cav (I got sick and never did ship over) and, as he was hit 3 times, was sent back to the states. He used to tell me stories about the Cav as I was recovering and working in the Duty Room on light duty.
One story was that, at Landing Zone X-Ray, the wounded who survived reported the NVA had gone out at night and executed the wounded they could find with a shot to the head (A couple even survived to tell the tale!). Anyway, he said after that, unless ordered otherwise, the CAV took no prisoners. Heard that story from a couple of sources.
Men I know who served during WWII said much the same thing=there was no time during combat to watch prisoners. We were taught to leave no effective combatant behind you!
One story was that, at Landing Zone X-Ray, the wounded who survived reported the NVA had gone out at night and executed the wounded they could find with a shot to the head (A couple even survived to tell the tale!). Anyway, he said after that, unless ordered otherwise, the CAV took no prisoners. Heard that story from a couple of sources.
Men I know who served during WWII said much the same thing=there was no time during combat to watch prisoners. We were taught to leave no effective combatant behind you!
Last edited:
7shooter
Member
I met Korean War soldiers who executed prisoners when their unit had to move forward and could not keep the prisoners. I also knew new Marines in the South Pacific who described coming upon groups of Japanese soldiers all shot in the head. After they were in combat and came upon mutilated Americans they knew why.
My first job in Denver was with Hobart food machines. The commercial dishwasher salesman was a man named Martin Rust. He survived the BOB. When asked about it all He would say is " I dug the deepest foxhole." Never another word about WWII.
handejector
Staff member
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2005
- Messages
- 26,134
- Reaction score
- 47,053
The necessity of war:
The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Can you imagine what invading Europe from the west would have been like if Hitler had not had to defend the eastern front? They'd still be spending Reichsmarks in Paris, if not London.
The allies supported many bad guys simply because they were fighting the "badder" guys. Tito, Mao, and Uncle Ho come readily to mind.....
BearBio
Member
If I remember right, and if we are both referring to the same incident, the Japanese removed body parts and consumed them, even with adequate supplies.
Another incident:
"But the most spine-chilling of all Japanese atrocities was cannibalism.
"At the village of Suaid, a Japanese medical officer periodically visited the Indian compound and selected each time the healthiest men. These men were taken away ostensibly for carrying out duties, but they never reappeared," the Melbourne correspondent of The Times, London, cabled the version of Jemadar Latif of 4/9 Jat Regiment of the Indian Army, on November 5, 1946.
Latif's charges were reinforced by Captain R U Pirzai and Subedar Dr Gurcharan Singh. "Of 300 men who went to Wewak with me, only 50 got out. Nineteen were eaten. A Jap doctor —Lieutenant Tumisa, formed a party of three or four men and would send an Indian outside the camp for something. The Japs immediately would kill him and eat the flesh from his body. The liver, muscles from the buttocks, thighs, legs, and arms would be cut off and cooked," Captain Pirzai told Australian daily The Courier-Mail in a report dated August 25, 1945.
Many other testimonials of the PoWs gave details of the cannibalism practised. These were used by the war crimes investigation commissions set up by the Allies, based on which several Japanese officers and men were tried.
The senior-most Japanese officer found guilty of cannibalism and hanged was Lieutenant General Yoshio Tachibana.
Initially, the Japanese did not accept the charges. Then in 1992, a Japanese historian named Toshiyuki Tanaka found incontrovertible evidence of Japanese atrocities, including cannibalism. In 1997, Tanaka came out with his book, Hidden Horrors: Japanese War Crimes In World War II."
Do a google search of Japanese atrocities and you'll find more (with documentation). I had a scoutmaster who survived the Bataan Death March and he would never talk about it!
Last edited:
If I recall correctly, commissioned officers can't wear foreign awards regardless.
When I was at the reception station for basic training, there was a drill sergeant who had served in the Czech army. Hated the Russians (and communists generally) with a seething passion.
Last edited:
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
