Different 4516-1 Guide Rods

[itguy]

In the last month my brother & I both picked up a 4516-1. His still has the silver trigger & hammer, while min has the black hammer & trigger, but not MIM (I think).

His guide rod looks like the traditional design, whereby the rod is one piece, one recoil spring, etc... My guide rod has an inner and an outer piece to it. Mine also has two recoil springs, like the old Colt Officers 1911 had.

My question is, did S&W make a change at some point during the 4516-1 time frame, or does one of us have a non-stock guide rod assembly?

 

[itguy]

In the last month my brother & I both picked up a 4516-1. His still has the silver trigger & hammer, while min has the black hammer & trigger, but not MIM (I think).

His guide rod looks like the traditional design, whereby the rod is one piece, one recoil spring, etc... My guide rod has an inner and an outer piece to it. Mine also has two recoil springs, like the old Colt Officers 1911 had.

My question is, did S&W make a change at some point during the 4516-1 time frame, or does one of us have a non-stock guide rod assembly?

 

[max]

I have no idea as to your question, but I do have a spare mag if you are interested. Email me at [email protected].

 

[KurtC]

The dual spring guide rod is part of R3 (Revision 3) program that led to the TSW series. You can use them in the earlier models, but you will need a bushing for the hole in the slide, as the newer rod is thinner.

 

[itguy]

Thanks! Is one better or more desirable than the other? Was the change made to address an issue?

 

[KurtC]

My own observation: The dual spring rod came about as a precaution when Smith started using aluminum frames for their compact .45's. The fact that it was used for the remaining 4516's just streamlined the parts procurement.

 

[Denver Dick]

It is my understanding that the 4516 and the 4516-1 used one recoil spring. I think it was in around late '93 or early '94 the they came out with the 4516-2. Among the changes incorporated into the -2 was the use of the dual recoil spring set with a solid recoil spring guide of smaller diameter than that on the no dash and -1 versions.

Apparently, ejection and feeding issues popped up with some of the 4516-1 pistols. In an effort to address that issue, the new -2 pistols got the dual recoil spring set. Apparently, when folks sent their 4516-1 pistols into to S&W to address feeding/ejection problems, they got them back modifed with the dual recoil spring set.

I have first hand knowledge of this since, at the suggestion of a S&W tech in December of 1993, I sent my 4516-1 back to S&W for "an upgrade." I got it back with the dual recoil spring set and smaller guide rod. A bushing had been installed by the S&W tech in the guide rod hole in the front of the slide. It works great.

FWIW

 

[tacotime]

Denver, was there a charge for the upgrade?

Also I note that both of ITguy's pistols were 4516-1, though with different kinds of springs, hammers and triggers. I had before this thought that the dual springs, MIM hammer and trigger started with only the 4516-2. This and other blurred lines between versions just goes to show the dash and component changes are not as clearly defined as we tend to think.

As for me, in addition to the upgrades, the internal machine work I saw on a 4516-2 was FAR cleaner than the 4516-1 beside it.

 

[Denver Dick]

Tacotime:

There was no charge for the upgrade. I have seen others on the forum mention that the upgrade was sometimes done without "consulting" the customer who sent in a -1 to address feeding/ejection problems.

I don't know what itguy has there with the blue/black hammer and trigger. It sure sounds like a -2. Maybe itguy's -1 went back to the factory and got a new black hammer and tigger in addtion to the dual spring modifcation. Just a thought . . .

In addition to my factory modified -1, I have a -2. I agree with you that the -2 appears to be a bit superior to the -1, even though I really like the hard chromed hammer and trigger.

 

[18DAI]

My 4516-3 has a single spring, and was made in 2004. Regards 18DAI.

 

[itguy]

Interesting stuff! Both are definitely 4516-1 models. There is a sticker on the box, covered by a blank sticker, but looking through it does look like mine, (with the dual springs), was up at the factory at some point.

In fact, check out this pic. Under the trigger guard there are some dings that look as if someone had a punch for the letter "U", as in maybe a factory refurb sold as used to a dealer? Looks like if that's what it is they hit the punch too soft two times, then hit it hard enough to form the letter "U".

Just a guess, but if it was a refurb, maybe they but the dual-spring assembly in it then.?.

 

[Denver Dick]

itguy:

It sounds like you're on to something there. From other posts, it appears the "U" is stamped on used guns (LE turn-ins) when refurbished by the factory. That could definitely be where the dual spring modification took place. It also might explain how the blue/black trigger and hammer got in pistol.

Take a look at the inside of the slide. Does it appear that any area has some post-manufacture machining? Of course, if the pistol has been refinished, that might make it difficult to notice a small area of fresh machining. If it's like mine, the little machined area would be inside the slide, left side, near top, right at the front of the ejection port. It apears like a little relief cut. FWIW

 

[itguy]

The gun was sold to me as "like new". When I got it, it did indeed look as though it had barely been fired, and never carried, (no scratches). Near as I can tell, there was no post-manufacture machining...

In another thread here, I posted about some holes on the frame rail. That was the only thing that kept mine from being a perfect specimen. Of course, it could have been sold to a LE agency, then traded back to S&W, having never been issued. (I hear that's where a lot of the like new 3rd Gen's come from.) When S&W got it, they probably gave it the same once over they do all guns, issued or not.

From this thread, my guess it they went ahead and fitted it with the new style guide rod at that time. The only question left for me is, when the gun was at S&W. I have eMail'd S&W asking, but they obviously got very behind after shutting down for the holidays.

Plausible theory?

 

[itguy]

One last question. Is the dual spring retrofit (with guide rod bushing in the slide hole) the same thing as you get with a 4516-2?

Or, when this became standard, did the slide get re-milled for a smaller guide rod slide hole?

Trying to determine if my 4516-1 with retrofit is suspect to being finicky\gimpy\etc...

 

[Denver Dick]

My 4516-1 that received the dual recoil spring modification at factory received a press fit bushing allowing the use of the smaller recoil spring rod. The slide of my 4516-2 was originally drilled for the smaller recoil spring, no bushing. So, does your 4516-1 look like it has a bushing?

By the way, I've fired a fair amount of ammo through my 4516-1 with the duel recoil spring modification and works prefect. FWIW

 

[itguy]

Definitely has the bushing pressed in. The rod is much thinner than normal. Almost 9mm sized.