Do We Have a Better Spokesman for CC & SD Than Massad Ayoob?

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Thanks for the link, Jack. I think Massod needs to be more widely publicized. I really disagree with the hype about "brandishing" being a crime since a lot of times that can stop the aggression immediately. We have some really stupid laws, especially in some jurisdictions.
 
Maybe there were only 38,000 defensive shooters who hit their target well enough to kill them?

Not trying to be (completely) flip, but his statistics don't mention non-fatal gunshot injuries.
 
Thanks for the link, Jack. I think Massod needs to be more widely publicized. I really disagree with the hype about "brandishing" being a crime since a lot of times that can stop the aggression immediately. We have some really stupid laws, especially in some jurisdictions.

There's a big difference between 'Brandishing' and 'Displaying'.

If you're swinging a firearm around in a menacing/threatening manner for whatever reason besides self-defense, that's 'Brandishing', and yes, that should (and in most places is) a crime.

If you (for whatever reason you might feel is necessary) decide to 'Display' your firearm in a perceived self-defense situation, that is usually acceptable and not considered a criminal act.
 
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There's a big difference between 'Brandishing' and 'Displaying'.

If you're swinging a firearm around in a menacing/threatening manner for whatever reason besides self-defense, that's 'Brandishing', and yes, that should (and in most places is) a crime.

If you (for whatever reason you might feel is necessary) decide to 'Display' your firearm in a perceived self-defense situation, that is usually acceptable and not considered a criminal act.


It really depends upon the jurisdiction and the prosecuting authority IMO. NYS has a menacing/brandishing statute that's worded so broadly that the mere display of the firearm, intentional or not, is grounds for charges depending upon what the supposed "victim" claims.


§ 120.14 Menacing in the second degree.

A person is guilty of menacing in the second degree when:

1. He or she intentionally places or attempts to place another person
in reasonable fear of physical injury, serious physical injury or death
by displaying a deadly weapon, dangerous instrument or what appears to
be a pistol, revolver, rifle, shotgun, machine gun or other firearm; or ...

NYS Open Legislation | NYSenate.gov
 
It really depends upon the jurisdiction and the prosecuting authority IMO. NYS has a menacing/brandishing statute that's worded so broadly that the mere display of the firearm, intentional or not, is grounds for charges depending upon what the supposed "victim" claims.




NYS Open Legislation | NYSenate.gov

Well, that's NY for you. What a crock of mumbo-jumbo. Apparently, the NYS is so smart that they can make up their own definition regardless of what is in the dictionary. :rolleyes:


brandish
verb
bran·​dish ˈbran-dish
brandished; brandishing; brandishes
Synonyms of brandish
transitive verb

1
: to shake or wave (something, such as a weapon) menacingly
brandished a knife at them
 
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Sometimes, things depend too much on what side of the bed the AG got up on! :). It appears there is at least some confusion brought on by semantics. If I feel threatened by some thug who appears to have I'll intent towards me, and I draw a sidearm and have it at low ready, is that displaying or brandishing (which one). Honest question for those of you in the know. I have read a lot of internet experts say pulling a weapon is brandishing and could wind up with a person being prosecuted.
 
I always wondered what "part time police officer" meant. Was he an auxiliary traffic cop? Crowd control? Crossing guard? I wondered if full time LEO had an issue being trained by him. I could see that happening.
 
Rule of thumb for everyone to remember - if you pull out a gun for the purposes of causing someone exhibiting a serious threat to you or others to leave the scene and you don't have any further confrontation and no shooting - put the gun away and CALL 911 ANYWAY!!!! If you don't someone else might, including the perp, and that's when you'll be accused of menacing or brandishing, etc. Call Five-0 and tell them exactly what happened and if they say wait for a cop to show up then wait. If they say thank you, we have a record of it, you can leave then that's when you leave safely.
 
Colorado Revised Statute Section 18-3-206 "Menacing" muddies the water a bit whether or not a firearm is displayed. I won't quote the statute here, but it's worth a read for any of our Colorado residents. As was stated above, be the first to call the police so as to hopefully mitigate the thug calling and claiming to be the victim.
 
Rule of thumb for everyone to remember - if you pull out a gun for the purposes of causing someone exhibiting a serious threat to you or others to leave the scene and you don't have any further confrontation and no shooting - put the gun away and CALL 911 ANYWAY!!!! If you don't someone else might, including the perp, and that's when you'll be accused of menacing or brandishing, etc. Call Five-0 and tell them exactly what happened and if they say wait for a cop to show up then wait. If they say thank you, we have a record of it, you can leave then that's when you leave safely.

This is also good advice because on the off chance that all the attacker actually did was duck around a corner, lying in wait, then once they hear you called 911 they're likely to actually flee the scene than stick around to ambush you.
 
I attended his MAG-20 class a couple years ago and it was great information.

He still does a great job of breaking things down and well worth the price of admission.

In regard to his LE background he is solid. Only a fool would look down on his knowledge and disregard it because he was not a full time LEO.

But of course those fools exist.
 
Well, that's NY for you. What a crock of mumbo-jumbo. Apparently, the NYS is so smart that they can make up their own definition regardless of what is in the dictionary. :rolleyes:


brandish
verb
bran·​dish ˈbran-dish
brandished; brandishing; brandishes
Synonyms of brandish
transitive verb

1
: to shake or wave (something, such as a weapon) menacingly
brandished a knife at them


Go take a look at the Texas CCW statutes. They don't even mention "menacing" or "threatening". Just allowing it to be seen in a holster seems to be enough.
 
Mas Ayoob and YouTuber Paul Harrell are probably two of my favorite 2A-related personalities. Both have years of experience and have excellent presentation styles that don't come off as pretentious or otherwise full of themselves. Just great information and practical demonstrations.
 
I took the LFI 1 course from Ayoob back when dinosaurs still walked the earth. It was an excellent class and he is an outstanding instructor.

Same here.

I took LFI 1 over 20 years ago, after 20 years of reading his articles and books. At that time it was a stretch for me financially, but "Judicious Use of Deadly Force" was more than I'd hoped for.

The range portion of that class, his "Stress Fire" system, immediately helped me improve my ability to coach other shooters, particularly those more recoil sensitive than I.

To this day, when I pick up a magazine I read his articles FIRST!
 
I always wondered what "part time police officer" meant. Was he an auxiliary traffic cop? Crowd control? Crossing guard? I wondered if full time LEO had an issue being trained by him. I could see that happening.

Ayoob was a cop in NH from 1972-2017, working as a patrol officer, firearms instructor and in many additional ranks & positions. He retired as a Captain. Simultaneously he was an author and trainer. He is a nationally recognized expert witness.

When I took his class, 1/3 of students were law enforcement officers, including a firearms instructor from a state university police academy. Lawyers were also well represented.
 
New Yorker here

I might have mention this years ago, not sure.

Back in the mid 1970s I had a incident at my house. It was about 2AM and I heard a lot of yelling and pounding on the downstairs door. Grabbed my revolver and being a bit dumb went downstairs to the basement door. Turned on the outside light and there were 3 boys & 2 girls all about 18 or so. I gently opened the inside door and asked "what the hell is going on". They told me their vechicle was stuck behind the school next door and as I had a 4X4 truck would I pull them out of the mud.

No way was I going out with those drunk possibly drugged up people. Told them quite clearly my truck was broke but one and I MEAN ONE could come in the house and use the phone. Unlocked the door and all walked towards the door. My .38 which I had behind my back was brought up into a present arms position pointed at the ceiling. They saw it and beet a hasty screaming departure.

Got on the phone and called the PD told them quickly the whole story and repeated I never pointed it at them I wanted that reordered in case of problems. Two cars showed up one with a sergeant and a newbie young officer. Told all 3 cops what happened and you could then hear a car gunning its engine back of the school. They went back there and after doing some flashlight work arrested the kids for breaking in the school.

The sergeant and new cop came back to the house to get my info and the sergeant let the new kid do the interview. Asked me about the gun which I had unloaded, cylinder open on a table. The sergeant said dam thats a little model 60, listened to them kids I thought you had a Gatling gun or something huge

The kid went back to the interview and asked me do you always answer the door with a pistol in your hand and I replied no at 2AM if I had a shot gun handy I would have had that. The sergeant had a hard time keeping a straight face. He then told me you did nothing wrong gun wise you are not in any trouble. They never even asked me about a pistol permit, I assume the person that answered the phone checked that!

Yes I was nervous as this is NYS but the sergeant was right!
 
Ayoob was a cop in NH from 1972-2017, working as a patrol officer, firearms instructor and in many additional ranks & positions. He retired as a Captain. Simultaneously he was an author and trainer. He is a nationally recognized expert witness.

When I took his class, 1/3 of students were law enforcement officers, including a firearms instructor from a state university police academy. Lawyers were also well represented.

Wikipedia refers to him as having been a part time LEO in NH. Figures they'd get it wrong
 
Wikipedia refers to him as having been a part time LEO in NH. Figures they'd get it wrong

I think he was only part time. He mentioned something like that in one of his Wilson Combat videos. Which IMO, doesn't make him any less of a cop.

He's one of the old school greats, that unfortunately like a lot of others, is on his way out.
 
Wikipedia refers to him as having been a part time LEO in NH. Figures they'd get it wrong

IIRC, his police service was a mixture of full time and part time.

Most of us LEOs were full time coppers and part time (off duty) security officers, bouncers, carpenters, etc. :(

Mas found a better way to make a living. :)
 
IIRC, his police service was a mixture of full time and part time.

Most of us LEOs were full time coppers and part time (off duty) security officers, bouncers, carpenters, etc. :(

Mas found a better way to make a living. :)


As stated in above comments I have attended his MAG-20 class and have followed, read and studied him since I was a teenager.

When speaking, and listed in his bio at the Masad Ayoob Group web page, it indicates his 47 years of LE experience was fully sworn but part time. And mostly at a command level.

He speaks about his upbringing during his classes. Fascinating and very talented man.
 
I always wondered what "part time police officer" meant. ...

I wondered if full time LEO had an issue being trained by him..

Exactly what it would sound like. You're talking about a sparsely populated state, with many small-towns, and 'vllages'. Many such places have enough budget to extend P/T positions on a paid-basis. Normally, such hours budgeted would be for special-events held in the community. Also, holidays (with a focus on responding to mischief and DUI) bring the need for additional coverage.
There are also many communities with 'reserve' officer programs. You patrol entirely on a volunteer basis, usually with a minium requirement of two-four shifts per month. Sometimes those can be split into 4-5hrs at a crack. Say...Friday and Sat eves from 11pm-3am. Again, think 'last-call', and the exodus from the pubs, bars, clubs and such. Many are re-imbursed for equipment, and may be 'paid' a dollar per year. This covers their medical care and legal assistance for line-of-duty issues. Some reserves are 'fully-sworn', and able to work alone, with full authority. Some must be attached with a full-timer as a partner/back-up. Policies as to the mininum level/s of training and operation differ.

I grew-up in S. Florida, which was then and is even moreso now, quite densely populated. Many departments had reserves. Retirees who want to keep their feet in the water, LOL. Or, career professionals of other sorts who have have a desire for serving in that capacity. My own former agency has many reserves. I live in Phoenix today, with a budget for about 3K officers. Woefully understaffed at around 2400 officers, they are appreciative of their reserve program. There was a rather well-known journalist here years back that was a reserve officer {is?} for a suburb town of Phoenix.

I would imagine that Ayoob's interest stemmed from the journalist approach he got started with. Then, actual interest in jumping into the water. When the business opportunity came knocking...well, who can blame the guy? I think he grabbed that by the reigns and rode it into what he has today.

Rule of thumb for everyone to remember - if you pull out a gun for the purposes of causing someone exhibiting a serious threat to you or others to leave the scene and you don't have any further confrontation and no shooting - put the gun away and CALL 911 ANYWAY!!!! If you don't someone else might, including the perp, and that's when you'll be accused of menacing or brandishing, etc. Call Five-0 and tell them exactly what happened and if they say wait for a cop to show up then wait. If they say thank you, we have a record of it, you can leave then that's when you leave safely.

Absolutely spot-ON dittoes, my amigo. First the phone is perceived as the 'victim/reporter', like it or not.
 
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IIRC, his police service was a mixture of full time and part time.

Most of us LEOs were full time coppers and part time (off duty) security officers, bouncers, carpenters, etc. :(

Mas found a better way to make a living. :)

My brother recently "retired" from being what would be considered part time as a cop in southern NH - he still flies corporate jets, which definitely pays a bit more then being PD in a small town.

Not quite sure of exactly how it works, but there are alot of smaller towns in NH where part time types augment a modest full time PD force. Lots of traffic stops, DUI, etc level work.
 
I have been following Ayoob since some time in the 70s when I first ran across his magazine columns. From the outset it was obvious to me that he knew/knows his stuff.

My initial impressions then, which carry through to now, is that he is not afraid to create controversy when he encounters something that needs to be known. During that era there was an issue about the S&W model 66s seizing up when rapid firing hot .357 loads. The cause was due to expansion of the stainless steel closing up tolerances causing the revolvers to seize up. No such problem had been observed in the Model 19s. Believe all this was covered in the American Handgunner magazine. Ayoob took a lot of flack on that, including pressure to not write about the problem, but he stuck with it in the belief that this was a potential officer safety issue.

I respected that then, still do.

Conversely I have seen, on this forum but some years ago, individuals not just disagreeing with Ayoob but doing so to the point of personal condemnation. Since there was no supportive documentation to support the posters' assertions, these posts came across as attempts meant to denigrate Ayoob and in so doing elevate the expertise status of the critics.

The problem with that though is that when someone, anyone, writes something, that speaks of the writer. In other words, the messenger counts and readers do make those assessments.

I am glad to see that this discussion has not gone in that direction. I think Ayoob has earned that. For me personally, as a 30+ year career LEO, shooting competitor, range officer, trainer and teacher, I have the highest respect for him.
 
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