Do you carry in a "gun-free zone?

[hobby-gunsmith]

do you carry in a GFZ

In Florida, a business may have a sign posted "no firearms permitted". You have to ask yourself whether you commit a trespass by going in the store. If so, then you've committed an "Armed trespass". which is a third degree felony. Attorney Jon H. Gutmacher, author of the Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership guide, opinions that your going into such a store or shopping mall is not a trespass just because they post a sign saying "No firearms" because you are still an "invitee", and they still want your business -- just without the weapon. Again, that ishis personal interepretation. A court could call me wrong, and if you want to play it safe -- obey the sign. This is "test cse" time again. ON the other hand, if you do follow his interpretation, and they asked you to leave, and you refused, or started to argue with them -- that would be another story, and you'd be in serious trouble because they've now made it clear thay want you off the property, and the law says you have only a reasonable time to leave -- not to argue or have a debate with them. Likewise, if they had a guard posted at the mall entrtance, and asked you if you were armed -- and you lied -- again, I think you have a problem. But, in essence, they really are only posting these things to protect themselves from a liability standpoint in case something happens. That way, you get sued -- they don't. Since the offense of trespass by an invitee would require a warning, and a refusal to depart, his opinion, is that you can't legally "refuse" until someone asks you to leave. Than, it's time to swallow your pride, and exit very quickly, and very politely. If the wife, and kids are somewhere else in the mall -- ask if they'll make an announcement. Don't push you luck if they're reluctant or refuse. Just get the hell out of there, pronto! If the wife or kinds will be confused -- try bribingf some honest-looking passerby outside the mall and notify them. All this is a lot better than an arrest, and a third degree felony on your record. Again, this is a quote from a prominant attorney in Orlando and many of the law enforcement agencies and courts use this book as a guide in the Florida Law. Hope this takes the guess work out of this situation.

Nick

 

[CigarGuy]

In Florida, a business may have a sign posted "no firearms permitted". You have to ask yourself whether you commit a trespass by going in the store. If so, then you've committed an "Armed trespass". which is a third degree felony. Attorney Jon H. Gutmacher, author of the Florida Firearms Law, Use & Ownership guide, opinions that your going into such a store or shopping mall is not a trespass just because they post a sign saying "No firearms" because you are still an "invitee", and they still want your business -- just without the weapon. Again, that ishis personal interepretation. A court could call me wrong, and if you want to play it safe -- obey the sign. This is "test cse" time again. ON the other hand, if you do follow his interpretation, and they asked you to leave, and you refused, or started to argue with them -- that would be another story, and you'd be in serious trouble because they've now made it clear thay want you off the property, and the law says you have only a reasonable time to leave -- not to argue or have a debate with them. Likewise, if they had a guard posted at the mall entrtance, and asked you if you were armed -- and you lied -- again, I think you have a problem. But, in essence, they really are only posting these things to protect themselves from a liability standpoint in case something happens. That way, you get sued -- they don't. Since the offense of trespass by an invitee would require a warning, and a refusal to depart, his opinion, is that you can't legally "refuse" until someone asks you to leave. Than, it's time to swallow your pride, and exit very quickly, and very politely. If the wife, and kids are somewhere else in the mall -- ask if they'll make an announcement. Don't push you luck if they're reluctant or refuse. Just get the hell out of there, pronto! If the wife or kinds will be confused -- try bribingf some honest-looking passerby outside the mall and notify them. All this is a lot better than an arrest, and a third degree felony on your record. Again, this is a quote from a prominant attorney in Orlando and many of the law enforcement agencies and courts use this book as a guide in the Florida Law. Hope this takes the guess work out of this situation.

Nick

While a wonderful analysis, I keep coming back to my original premise as to WHY would you even(want to?) go in the business in the first place? Because you can?

 

[Springfeildkid585]

I try to respect their rules, it's their property. If I see the sign, I turn back if that's an option. I have walked into a few buildings where I know it's unwelcome, but there is no sign. Even then, I try to minimize my time in there.

 

[hatt]

I don't ever look to see if there are signs when going into stores. Couldn't care less if they have one up, which is rare. Around here the places most likely to have a no guns sign is a gun store.

 

[Lost Lake]

I would never admit to breaking the law on a forum... Of course I always obey those signs.

One local farm supply store near me has a sign saying something like all guns must be unloaded and encased in a gun case EXCEPT for those persons who have a concealed carry permit and are exercising their right to legally carry a firearm.

I like that sign!

I'm going to start carrying some slips of paper I can hand clerks and owners asking them why they would post a 'no gun' rule and what they expect is going to happen besides keep the good guys unarmed and making the place safer for the bad guys.

 

[sierra255]

As much as I don't like it, I have to respect the store owners right to refuse anyone who is armed excluding LEO in performance of duty. I would simply turn around and find another business venue that meets my needs. If a store owner has gone to the extreme of posting a sign, you can bet that you will not change his mind, so, why get into a discussion you won't win..

I have been in cities that have signs posted "Gun Free Zone" (ya right) however my states laws allow active/retired LEO'S the right of carry so I am covered. If you must go into a business that say's no guns, then remember the old song from 1967 "Silence is Golden"
_________
Rodger
Retired LEO

 

[icemn]

What sign?

 

[Lineman73]

Georgia laws say that I can't carry to sporting events, government buildings, schools (unless picking up your children--mine are older than that)., churches and polling places. There is no mention of locations posted by the owner. However, if challenged by an owner and asked to leave, I will comply.....forever!

 

[cshoff]

I carry EVERYWHERE where it is legal for me to carry. However, I allow for the caveat that I don't do business with places who post "no guns" signs unless it is absolutely necessary (such as a hospital or some other private company that provides a unique service or product) - so it's not often that I have to "ignore" one of those signs that has no force of law in my state anyway.

 

[setxn]

I've been boycotting businesses for all of my adult life.So far it has been for bad service,crappy food,inferior products etc. No gun related boycotts yet. The businesses I have boycotted through the years are all still in business,some are even thriving.I still get that warm and fuzzy feeling for denying them my hard earned money but it hasn't hurt them one bit. Here in Texas there only two signs that have any legal force to them and they are very specific to their wording,lettering size,location and even color when it pertains to alcohol on premise. Verbal or written notice by on site authority carries the same legal standing as a proper sign. So your decision is simple-pass the proper signs and break the law or not. If no legal sign is present keep your firearm concealed properly and your pie hole closed and it will work out fine.

 

[CigarGuy]

I really don't consider the legal force of the sign; I consider why the owner doesn't want my business.

 

[baccusboy]

I was in a mall where I saw a sign posted. Was carrying, turned right back around and put it in my car. Finished my shopping. Shopped elsewhere from then on.

 

[setxn]

Cigarman- The sign referred to as a 30.06 sign(penal code #not rifle caliber) is very specific to size of lettering,wording,must be in English and Spanish,contrasting colors and conspicuous. These are not very common at all and around here, banks post them the most.But if one of these is posted the laws were researched and their intent is obvious. The "gunbuster" circle with slash,or any other sign does not effect a CHL holder. These businesses can be required by insurance reasons to post some kind of no gun sign and others it is just ignorance of the laws. The red 51% sign is required by law if the business's profit from on premise alcohol sales, again very specific but not a choice for the business owner. And as stated by others the criminal element doesn't worry about any of these.
Hypothetical situation- A person is carrying in a restricted area and has a heart attack,stroke,seizure etc. and the weapon is discovered the police station could be the next stop after the hospital-I bet it has happened.

 

[CigarGuy]

I don't go in, so I "don't care" about the sign.
Sorry I wasn't more clear.

 

[setxn]

Yeah I have trouble conveying meaning via keyboard some times.One of my points was that the "Gunbuster" signs probably satisfy insurance or corporate requirements but do not effect CHL holders,possibly a calculated move to not alienate someone carrying.As far as boycotting a business- if every CHL holder in Texas did it to a business in one location it would show up in their profit margin. With less than 2% of Texas citizens licensed and a fraction of of those carrying daily the hit them in the billfold does not carry much weight. I know signs or lack of signs vary greatly from state to state and I have not researched Florida's laws but I will if I head east to your state.The first time we went I didn't stop till we ran out of road in Key West, great place in the early 70's. Also had the surprise and pleasure of seeing quite a few Key deer-smallest 8 point buck I've ever seen.My comments are not meant to offend anyone. Shoot safe and shoot often.

 

[Mike McLellan]

Don't take your guns into any place that's forbidden either by Statute, or by written notice of the property owners. There are people just waiting to scream bloody murder about those wild-eyed gun nuts who have no respect for anybody else. The more confrontations that we have, the fewer discussions we'll have. Nobody will listen when they're angry, or afraid.

 

[iquitos]

Texas prescribes exact wording for the no carry sign. If the sign is not in compliance with that wording, Carry it in. Just an over the counter No guns sign wont do in Texas.

 

[Ghost_Soldier]

In OHIO it's a CIVIL TRESPASS issue, not a criminal one.

Its the same here in Missouri. I carry in every private business I go to. The only private businesses around here I've seen signs at weren't legal size anyway. I've only encountered maybe 2 businesses that have had a sign posted anyway.

 

[DeeBee]

If your gun is concealed well enough, I dont know what you would be worried about?

 

[CigarGuy]

If your gun is concealed well enough, I dont know what you would be worried about?

Giving someone my business who doesn't want it?

 

[Jeff1000]

I probably wouldn't enter the business. Why would I put myself in a situation where only a criminal would have a gun, like Aurora. And if the owner of said business is not smart enough to realize that truth then why would I reward him with my business. I avoid stupidity whenever I can.

 

[DeeBee]

About 1/2 of the U.S. is anti gun. Its useless trying to change a liberals mind. So it is inevetible to end up shopping in a liberal owned shop. You cant avoid them all.

 

[OLDFED]

Not shopping in a "No Guns" store is your choice, but the owners never know you didn't buy because of their policy. A CCW licensed friend of mine claims he went into a "No Guns" store unarmed. He took about $600 worth of goods to the counter and proffered his credit card. Just before the clerk started to ring the goods up, he asked about the sign in the window. The clerk gave him the eye roll and said it was a "management rule." Friend asked to speak with the manager, who said it was to "protect" customers. Friend politely went thru the insanity of that argument and asked if the manager would make an exception for a CCW. The manager said no, so Friend said he shouldn't be in the store and told the clerk to cancel his purchases. Predicatably, manager saw the pile of goods and tried to get Friend to make the purchase, but Friend said he has a CCW and can't shop in stores what don't allow firearms. Some weeks later, the sign was gone. You have to let the managers know what they're missing out on in terms of safety and sales.

 

[TexasArmed]

Only place I see the sighns are banks and some malls. But on the picture it shows a revolver so obviously its ok to walk in with my semi auto concealed : )

We don't have problems like that in Texas. The legal sign is a 30.06 sign or a 51% sign which we are obligated to obey.
Any other sign is not enforceable in Texas. I was in a major bank outlet a couple of days ago where I have a small account.
I noticed that there was not a sign of anything to do with guns on the door. So next time I need to go there I will not disarm. I have seen signs like that at gun shops, about having to be unloaded. When I finally had to go there for something (disarmed), I mentioned to the owner that I hardly ever come there because of the sign, (which was not enforceable). He told me the sign just applied to those who were coming in to pawn their guns, not to me if I had a permit. He seemed perplexed that I had bought 4 revolvers in the past several years, but none of them at his store. Since then I ignore it but if I am asked to leave at any time I will comply.

 

[whw]

I legally carry concealed as defined by the laws of the Commonwealth or State under which I am bound. In some, I am allowed to carry in "gun free zones" unless ownership of the business takes exception and asks me to leave. I try to not frequent places that are declared as such.

whw

 

[Ghost_Soldier]

I was in a major bank outlet a couple of days ago where I have a small account.
I noticed that there was not a sign of anything to do with guns on the door. So next time I need to go there I will not disarm.

I'm not sure about Texas but in Missouri even if a bank doesn't have a sign you still can not carry in there because it mentions in the state statute that you aren't allowed to carry in banks. Same goes for any other building mentioned in the statutes.

 

[TexasArmed]

I'm not sure about Texas but in Missouri even if a bank doesn't have a sign you still can not carry in there because it mentions in the state statute that you aren't allowed to carry in banks. Same goes for any other building mentioned in the statutes.

No Banks are not mentioned in the State Statutes. Only 2 Signs in Texas are enforceable, the 30.06 sign as well as 51% signs. One may carry in a hospital (not Federal) if the 30.06 sign is not posted, but certain teaching hosptials may be excluded by statute. Sporting events are off limits as well.

There is also one bank in Texas I know of, that adertiszes CHL holders welcome. Texas has certain property protection provisions as well that are different from other states, such as protecting property, especially at night, so the fact that
you have different laws in Missouri does not suprize me. No Open Carry is allowed in Texas either.

Of course the problem someone might have, would be going to another State like yours, and thinking they can do likewise there. There probably are some states where hospitals of any kind are likewise off limits.

I guess the important point is to make sure we know where we can and cannot carry, if in doubt don't go there. (if we are law abiding citisens). I make every effort to comply with the laws of Texas.

 

[blujax01]

It looks like this?

Or this?

 

[Poodle Soup]

So carrying a rifle or shot gun in is still alright correct? : p

 

[JeepLvr]

I voted to keep carrying and go shopping anyway, but it's really more of a 'sometimes' answer.

If it's a business I really need to use, then I'll just keep carrying concealed and go shopping.

If it's a business I don't really need to use, then I'll go elsewhere out of principle.

In my State, the signs aren't enforcable by law. The business owner can tell you to leave, which then it becomes a trespass issue if you don't comply.

The interesting thing with these signs is that many business owners/managers don't understand the law and how it applies to different types of conceal carry licenses.

For example, as a reserve deputy and a license armed PI, I can conceal carry pretty much anywhere (schools, bars, gov't buildings while on duty). The signs on private businesses don't apply to me even off duty.

However, many store owners/managers don't understand that. They think all concealed carry licenses are the same.

This has not happened to me, but it has happened to a fellow PI. He entered a place of business with his concealed weapon. His weapon printed against his shirt while bending over to pick something up, and a manager told him he couldn't carry in there. My friend showed him his identification and mentioned that the signs don't apply to licensed investigators (he even quoted the statute). The manager persisted that he leave. So, my friend left. No sense in causing a scene and getting the police involved when the police have more important things to worry about. Both were polite with each other and went their separate ways. None of us will do business with that place again. He said he was going to write them a letter explaining things, but I don't know if he did or not.

So, whether you're the one carrying or the one telling people they can't carry, make sure you understand the laws in your State. It can help avoid problems.