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I'm not convinced gun control advocates can read. However, your posts will be closely examined if you should come to trial.
Do you ever wonder if Gun Control Advocates lurk or even sign up on Gun Forums?
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Using homogenous societies such as Japan as a comparison to the USA regarding murder rates and violent crime is apples and oranges. Take that comparison right off the table as it is not valid.Japan has some of the toughest gun laws in the world but they can own centerfire semi-auto rifles (no high cap magazines though ) and semi-auto shotguns but no pistols. Their vetting is extreme including 3 interviews with the police, interviews with your co-workers and neighbors, mandatory safety training and knowledge of all gun laws, all guns are registered, mandatory safe storage in an approved safe and surprise inspections of your guns as to proper storage to avoid children being killed with guns not locked up. And their mass murder, homicide rate, and criminal use of firearms is one of the lowest in the world.
European gun laws differ from State to State but they have been tightening up on their gun laws as well yet they own a ton of guns in Europe. All of the States have mandatory registration, background checks, safe storage laws, mandatory safety training and knowledge of their gun laws and most restrict or in some cases outlaw high cap military style weapons. Most states outlaw concealed carry or open carry as self defense with a firearm is usually prohibited. They all have way less homicide rates, less mass firearms murder rates, and less robbery with firearms mostly because there is very little unregistered weapons for sale on the black market. I have been to Europe and never once encountered anyone trying to sell me an unregistered weapon, even when I asked if such weapons were available (they were not to me) When there is a very rare mass murder it's usually sponsored by an enemy Middle East State which in reality is an act of war not subject to local gun laws.
I took a survey at our gun club (1,000 members plus) where the people know me and spoke freely about gun control and you would be surprised at the diversity of opinion on whether we had enough gun control or too much gun control. We at our club have people who vote both Republican, Democrat and Independent,
I have found that Chat rooms and gun websites do not reflect the overall public opinion on gun control both from gun owners themselves or from non-gun owners. It has been estimated that 3% of the population owns 90% of the firearms in the U.S. and those are not good odds if a public panics after a series of back to back of mass murders that for example took place several years ago only hours apart, one in Texas followed by one in Ohio. The Republicans led by MItch McConnell who at the time were in control spoke seriously of passing some severe gun control but backed out after the mass panicked public calmed down but they came very close to doing it.
I have found out that the present Supreme Court is not as pro-gun as we all thought either and have last week ignored the Scalia ruling and refused to hear a case where New York and Connecticut banned assault rifles. So claiming we all have 2A rights does not mean much when the Conservative Supreme Court ignores the Constitution and prior pro 2A rulings at their discretion. I remember reading in one of the Gun Magazines decades ago the statement that said "The Constitution does not mean what it says it means, it means what the Supreme Court says it means on any particular day or hour of the week". Unfortunately that is the disturbing truth not just on guns but on the entire rest of our freedoms as well.
Supreme Court won't hear assault weapons ban case
The Supreme Court said Monday that it won't take up a case related to assault weapons bans in Connecticut and New York. The decision not to take up thewww.washingtonexaminer.com
I think too that many, many, people who log on to gun websites remain silent as to how they really feel about gun control because most of those sites will ban people who exercise their right to free speech namely the 1st Amendment so they remain silent giving those against all gun control the false belief that everyone on their website is of their political beliefs. Banning free speech on a forum results in people living in a self-contained bubble completely devoid of the reality all around them throughout the country they live in. They often even ignore pro-gun people who have written books on the consequences of using a gun which results in death of another person. I think everyone should read books on the subject like the excellent books by Massad Ayoob such as In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection.
Europe has an extreme violent crime problem that is never discussed in the media. Significantly higher than the USA. I'd rather have a few more dead criminals than having to worry that my wife or daughter will be raped by a gang while then being charged because she was carrying a round tip butter knife as pointy knives are illegal.
The 30 round mag is too large for most everything tack/argument/anticonstitutional political fear mongering. Colorado used those arguments to justify their mag ban in 2012/2013.
So some math. What is the police shooting hit rate in FBI stats? Pretty low. Like 11% or so. Add in a home invasion crew of 2-5 people…then multiply and carry the one…more than 15 rounds will be needed to defend your home from the thugs who decided you and your family were an east target.
Therefore 30 round mags are a useful tool for home defense.
Newtown? The alleged shooting at a school that was closed? Media and politicians accomplished exactly what they wanted. A call to ban guns from American ownership. The school had been closed. The alleged murders were allegedly all one shot kills. A puny kid did that? He wouldn't have been able to carry the rifle and mags and do that. No ambulances on scene. No photos.
It was an psyop to raise alarm and frighten people.
Mission accomplished. Same with Uvalde, Aurora, etc etc. For one thing most of the perpetrators were 'known' to authorities ahead of time and allowed to go about their actions. Two most were on SSRI drugs, and allowed to do what they did. Then Brady, and Giffords and the usual come out of the woodwork and say Mr and Mrs American turn them all in.
The USA is still less violent than most of the world including Europe and Australia with their bans on everything. They cook the books on stats to make you believe otherwise.
And that's the argument in a microcosm- the demonstrable acts vs the extreme what-ifs.
Yea, one could be ambushed by a gang of very determined home invaders in their residence. Could absolutely happen. Has happened, very occasionally but it has. And gunfire was absolutely instrumental in saving lives and ending threats. How many? Well, that's a wide range, but I'll readily accept a number <20 as a reasonable average. Is a 30-round magazine on its own inherently better? Well, I'm not sure. 20 rounds is kind of a big-box by WW2 standards, it was adequate in the opinion of the US Army in Vietnam, and it's a box of ammo today. But the difference between 20 and 30 isn't really huge; certainly it's more minor than the difference between 5 or 6 or 8 or even 15 and 30, and even the 30s ain't holding candles to the 40+ magazines out there. But it's a silly gimmick, or a range toy…
…or it's for dumping deep boxes of ammunition into people. Kinda harder to do a mass shooting when you're having to thumb in rounds individually, or work a bolt, or even reload an en bloc clip or a little ten-rounder. But with 30 or 40? A shooter can keep on engaging, for a decent while. And in combat, that's fine. But why exactly do we want that mentality and kit readily-fielded in our streets, where we and our kids and families and friends live?
Somehow I knew there were a few reality-denying folks on this board; now we know one of them.
Human children don't hold up well to .223 Remington at any range, much less when they're packed into a tiny bathroom and blended until the magazines run dry. Weird, right? And when you can just jerk the trigger in the direction of first grade, how can you really miss?
And the above is exactly why we as a community need to grab the wheel back from the extremists, because I bet 75% of us reading this are facepalming and recognizing the insanity and the rest of society can see the literal, physical reality that is the horror of readily-performed mass shootings enabled by remarkably efficient and lethal weapons that ^certain people^ want NO regulations or restrictions on.
YouveHadYour6
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Folks...I've a confession to make. In addition to being a Colt boy I'm also about as far opposite of right as a person can go - and I am also pretty near a 2A absolutist. "Shall not be infringed" is pretty simple in my book.
If y'all stop feeding the tr...individual espousing gun control, maybe they'll go away. I know I'm setting to ignore'em.
Happy - and and safe - shooting folks!
If y'all stop feeding the tr...individual espousing gun control, maybe they'll go away. I know I'm setting to ignore'em.
Happy - and and safe - shooting folks!
Thanks for that idea. I should have sooner.
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Any other place in the Constitution or BOR that states SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED?
If not, your argument about other A's being infringed so why not the 2nd, holds no water.
If not, your argument about other A's being infringed so why not the 2nd, holds no water.
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Bozz10mm
US Veteran
99% of true 2A advocates are not lobbying to be able to own these type of weapons. What we want is for governments, state and federal, to stop banning or confiscating what we already have and what is already in common use. Also stop making it more and more difficult for law abiding citizens to keep and bear arms.
quote-----------Europe has an extreme violent crime problem that is never discussed in the media. Significantly higher than the USA.--------quote
Incorrect by a good country mile. Their crime rate is far, far below ours.
I might add when I was in a "very poor" East European Country I found it was quite safe to be out late at night and I was in a city 3 times the size of Cleveland, Ohio which is not safe to walk in even during daylight hours. I was worried about being out late one night in a foreign country so I observed the young ladies and how they were acting. Unlike in the U.S. they were not constantly looking over their shoulders with worried looks every time a man came by and were quite friendly to me even though they knew immediately I was from another country and with a heavy accent which they smiled at. I was never once threatened or felt threatened in any way.
One American College Graduate could not find a job in her field of music so she took a job in China. They made here "Head" of the Music department in a brand new College just built which would have taken her years in the U.S. to achieve. She once admonished some of her female Chinese students for "hitch hiking" to school as she said it was way too dangerous and told them that in America it would be the equivalent to committing suicide, which astonished the Chinese girls who told her it was quite safe to do so as they had been doing it for years. Again I am not advocating anyone go to live in China but for this American Girl she made out so well she even was able to buy and pay for in cash a new Apartment in only one year, again an impossibility in the U.S.
You are living in the past. Japan has a low birthrate and a lack of workers because of an aging population which is not being replaced (we have the exact same problem in the U.S.) In the last few decades Japan has admitted several million workers from all over the world including even Europe which is a lot of people because they are such a small country. They are "not" a homogeneous society. And I might add they have always had what they consider "lower classes of people" among the Japanese who are shunned as well.
I might add that the homogenous society always was a myth. When you have certain classes of people even in a homogenous society that do not have the highest level of education and therefore are at the lower end of the economic ladder the society has exactly the same problems as we have here including of course crime.
I might add Germany imported millions of Turkish people in the 70's and they assimilated quite well there and they have admitted millions more of Middle East people in the last 20 years because of the constant warfare going on in the Middle East. Again their crime rate and mass murder rate remains far, far, below that of the U.S. so again the lack of a homogeneous society is proved "wrong" once again by History.
I might add what is not taught in American History classes (at least at the High School level) is the fact that 50% of Immigrants that came to America in the early 1900's went back to their home countries and never returned. The same thing happened in the 1970's when a large group of Russian Immigrants were admitted to the U.S. and that was when Russia had a far worse economy but after only 5 years again 50% went back as they said they realized they had far more consumer goods and could make more money here but the lack of social programs made life too uncertain because if you lost your job it meant you probably would lose everything and they were dissatisfied with the obscene expenses of our healthcare system. Russians who went back stated that the lack of social services was dramatic in the U.S. compared to Russia where everyone had a agency to solve any problems they had and they were even guaranteed a place to live and a place to work.
I might add each Christmas Russia shows a Christmas Comedy movie where a drunken Russian is put on a plane and travels to the wrong city but the correct address. He gets off the plane and goes to what he thinks is his apartment but since all the public housing looks alike he does not catch on he just entered the wrong apartment in the wrong city where a beautiful but shocked Girl asks him what the heck he is doing in her apartment and sleeping in her bed on Christmas Eve and she tells him to get out because her boyfriend is coming to see her in the evening. It's a long movie but one that is hilarious. The point I am making is that everyone in Russia has a home even though it may be of the generic kind.
Now do not misunderstand me I am not acting as a cheerleader for living in Russia at all but merely pointing out some of the differences between Us and Them and their differences are not always inferior to some of ours.
As Mark Twain once said
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime."
[h3][/h3]
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The Stats on mass murder are available to anyone and "are not" cooked just because you wish they were. Australia never again had a mass murder of 50 people after the gun ban was passed. Yes they have had more than one person killed at a time by sick people but not on the scale that was previously seen. I do think Australia went overboard on some of their gun control that was passed in the panic of the moment but to have done nothing would have been far worse.
I might add the mass murder that was committed in Norway where 85 people were killed in 2011 resulted in some very Strict gun control being past and since then they have not had the mass murder that we have on almost a weekly basis.
Gun control can be tricky. What should be accomplished without taking away people's rights is keeping guns out of the hands of mentally ill people and criminals and this is never going to be accomplished when anyone in the U.S. can buy all the second hand guns they want without being vetted first.
That's how it worked back then. The 7th Illinois Volunteer Infantry had the largest number of Henry Rifles of any Union regiment. Five hundred rifles were privately purchased at a cost of $52.50 each, with financial assistance from their commanders and communities.
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Which isn't helped by the current crop of gun rights "advocates" we hear from constantly.
Doug M.
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If you are worried about what kooks monitor, belonging to or using and social media that is open to the public is dumb. Remember that this forum is open to the public/non-members and can be mined easily. I have quit using other forums except one that is locked down tight. I post under my real name and am careful who I word things (but type poorly). I won't post anything I won't honor later.
The good news is that down in DC, real flesh and blood human beings are applying dictionary-worthy "common sense" (by a narrow margin) and it's looking good for suppressors and SBRs to be removed from the NFA.
I mention this to point out that, despite some of the craziness being offered in this thread, it looks like the gun control crowd is losing their grip.
I wonder if this is why it's rearing it's head on this forum?
I mention this to point out that, despite some of the craziness being offered in this thread, it looks like the gun control crowd is losing their grip.
I wonder if this is why it's rearing it's head on this forum?
Good, suppressors should be a free-market item; SBRs are functionally all over with AR pistols so no changes there either.
Feature bans are silly. It's the proliferation of guns to all sorts of people that's the meat and potatoes of the issue. Because, as much as we might scream "freedumb!", we all know people who absolutely should never be allowed a firearm.
I think that what some people fail to understand is that there is not a strict dividing between conservatives and liberals or conservative and liberal gun owners. There is a lot of overlap...16% of the guns in the country are owned by Democrats. (according to Pew Pew) It is a small percentage, but still a large number. (millions of people) There are people who are Social Conservatives and Political Liberals and the opposite is true. You don't have to buy the whole package to be one or the other. Do disruptive people come to gun forums to cause problems, sure they do. They tend to act like jerks and don't last long. There are other visitors that I worry more about like foreign players that come to stir up trouble and are slick about it and are able to hang on and spread their messages. I am also keenly aware that alaphabet agencies monitor and participate on gun forums for their own reasons.
Among gun owners I am more liberal than most, I am not ashamed of it. I am also a veteran and consider myself to be a patriot. By any reasonable standard, I own a lot of firearms, I enjoy and defend my right to own and bear firearms. I am also unafraid to disagree with stuff that I find objectionble or unsupportable from either side. The most boring thing in the world is a gun forum that is monolithic, and hateful, just a cheering section where everyone trys to out shout the other. Trust me, I know this and that is why I am here and not there.
Among gun owners I am more liberal than most, I am not ashamed of it. I am also a veteran and consider myself to be a patriot. By any reasonable standard, I own a lot of firearms, I enjoy and defend my right to own and bear firearms. I am also unafraid to disagree with stuff that I find objectionble or unsupportable from either side. The most boring thing in the world is a gun forum that is monolithic, and hateful, just a cheering section where everyone trys to out shout the other. Trust me, I know this and that is why I am here and not there.
I look at the gun control laws as nothing but knee jerk politics. If a person isn't going to kill people with his single barrel shotgun he won't with a machine gun. He also won't go on a killing spree if his barrel was cut to 14". ( not counting what he would do to guy who cut his barrel).
I do think firearms that carry explosive war heads should be outlawed. You can have today's malcontents in possession of motars, howitzers and such without oversight. Don't doubt me, let a dipstick lay hands on exotic weapons they will find a way to misuse it. It don't bother me if they off themselves due to stupidity but innocents seem to get in the way.
I do think firearms that carry explosive war heads should be outlawed. You can have today's malcontents in possession of motars, howitzers and such without oversight. Don't doubt me, let a dipstick lay hands on exotic weapons they will find a way to misuse it. It don't bother me if they off themselves due to stupidity but innocents seem to get in the way.
Agree conceptually…but the potential for high casualties is a significantly higher with a high-capacity SA rifle than many other weapons
Same old..., you absolutely, positively cannot fix, regulate or legislate stupidity. When you try all you do is place the burden on those that are not stupid. As Cesare Beccaria wrote in "On Crimes and Punishments" (1764) - "False is the idea of utility that sacrifices a thousand real advantages for one imaginary or trifling inconvenience; that would take fire from men because it burns, and water because one may drown in it; that has no remedy for evils, except destruction. The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm those only who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Can it be supposed that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, the most important of the code, will respect the less important and arbitrary ones, which can be violated with ease and impunity, and which, if strictly obeyed, would put an end to personal liberty and subject innocent persons to all the vexations that the guilty alone ought to suffer?" John Adams and Thomas Jefferson thought highly of his papers and writings.
Point being, be very careful what you wish for, you may very well get it, and more. You might not like the outcome...
Point being, be very careful what you wish for, you may very well get it, and more. You might not like the outcome...
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How do you think they learn about which guns to buy for themselves? True gun controller's are usually well armed themselves1
I couldn't care less .
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By the late 18th century the firearms of the time included revolvers, other repeaters, and even fully automatic, detachable magazine fed, arms. In fact, the Continental Congress ordered 100 such weapons. And, to think that the founders couldn't conceive of further development of firearms is preposterous.
From Joseph Belton's 3rd letter to Congress, June 14, 1777:
"Sir, Please to inform the Honourable Congress, that as I have heretofore asserted to them, that I can discharge sixteen, or twenty balls from one piece, one charging, by once puling tricker..."
Always half fake and full fake news that people believe. Most 'mass murders' in the USA are gang bangers killing each other…who were released from jail because some feel good politician or judge heard the punk say he's sorry and won't do it again. And then he does.
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roundels
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"He don't know talkin' good like me and you."
--Rocket the Raccoon
The stats are indeed 'cooked' by ridiculous definitions of what constitutes a mass shooting. Much like years ago the stats on 'children' being shot were cooked by stretching the definition of 'children' to include anyone 23 years old or younger and including those in the military.
How many times do people have to witness the media and politicians get caught lying before they start questioning everything? "No new taxes," "You can keep your doctor," "We don't know where the virus came from," "He's sharp as a tack," "Mostly peaceful protests,"...
Never forget, the largest mass murders in human history have been carried out by governments and, "It can never happen here," is not only wrong - it is often dead wrong.
Actually according to the FBI Stats 54.3 % of people murdered are killed by people who knew each other and a large percentage of those are women killed by their boyfriends or husbands. That is exactly why Red Flag laws were passed in many States.
And if we look at your statement about criminals who were imprisoned for murder that is what I would call "after the fact" which simply means that putting the murderers in prison does not bring the dead back to life.
Rather preventing criminals from getting guns in the first place would have saved the majority of those that were murdered. Only severe and thorough vetting before the purchase of a weapon along with registration has proven effective in keeping criminals from getting guns.
Here is a "German incident" from last year about how gun control often works more of the time than it fails. A Nut Case was refused purchase of a handgun and rifle but he attempted to make his own. He attacked a Jewish Synagogue and the people saw him coming with the home made pistol in his hand. The nut case shot the gun but it misfired as his home made zip gun was not of the best quality. The German Police were on the scene in minutes and nabbed him. Again vetting prevented this nut from getting a lot of firepower that could have resulted in him wiping out the entire church crowd in seconds much as Dillan Roof did in the U.S. several years ago. He was a nutcase that should never have been permitted to own a weapon.
No system is perfect but to have "no system" as we currently have at the Federal Level is pure insanity as once a newly purchased gun is re-sold in most states it becomes lost to vetting and many find their way into the hands of criminals and psycho's.
As a matter of fact Law Enforcement has found that there is an "Iron Highway" of unregistered weapons that is in constant flow from Southern States with lax gun laws into Northern Big Cities that have tough laws which renders their gun control totally useless. Again pure insanity.
About 2 years ago in London (The London Bridge Incident) a group of nutcases wanted to commit mass murder but the British Vetting System flagged them and refused them even the purchase of a shotgun. The Nut Cases then attacked a bar full of people with knives and the bar patrons then attacked the Nut Cases with broken beer bottles and chairs and beat the "H" out of them. Again the British Vetting system worked and worked well.
As one can see gun control does work more of the time than it fails but people do not want to be inconvenienced with paperwork and they think "It will never happen to me anyway" so why should I support gun laws. Famous last words.
People will then scream that registration leads to confiscation but they ignore the fact that Europe is still awash in guns and you can still buy guns in Australia, New Zealand, Japan, Korea, Thailand and the list is endless. I had a buddy who had a penpal female in Thailand (if I remember correctly the Asian country) and he and I were both shocked out of our shoes when she sent him pictures of her "brand new" machine guns she purchased and yes they were registered. Now even we Americans are not allowed to buy brand new machine guns but they are and again they are all registered and quite legal.
I think too that people who go paranoid over registration fail to realize that the U.S. could outlaw a certain class of weapons even without registration because once a certain type of weapon is outlawed you could never use it in self defense, never take it to a public range to shoot it or take the risk of selling it and then getting caught and going to prison. In short a newly prohibited weapon owned by a law abiding citizen becomes totally useless to him even if it was before never registered.
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Deke Thornton
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