Do you REALLY believe in the 2nd Amendment?

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vito

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On this forum and elsewhere I often see evidence of those who say they believe in and support the 2nd Amendment, but clearly do not trust others to be responsible in their exercise of this natural right. Its almost like they are saying "the 2nd Amendment gives ME the right to keep and bear arms, but maybe it should not give YOU or others in the unwashed public masses that same right because I KNOW that I am a responsible person but I doubt that the rest of you are as well". I know that there are some places where the public seems to really walk the walk as well as talk the talk. I was in a western state last year where while waiting on line in a coffee shop, an odd looking gentleman with a huge handlebar mustache and cowboy hat walked in, carrying a very large caliber revolver openly on his belt and a short barreled AR on a sling hanging on his chest. Not only did no one panic or look alarmed, but I overheard one of the employees of the shop say that he felt safer whenever this gentleman came in for his morning coffee. I compare this to the almost hysterical reaction to open carry expressed by supposed gun rights supporters on certain gun related forums. The 2nd Amendment is a right OF THE PEOPLE, not just of some self identified gun elitists.
 
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Most people don't, but I think it's getting better. 15 years ago you got dirty looks walking around a gunshow with an AK. Now all those guys own AKs and ARs.
 
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So correct me if I'm wrong- this was really about OC vs. CC?

That subject, along with Bigfoot and the .380 ACP as a defensive round, have been beaten to death here at least several times that I'm aware of. Those subjects are in the "we should agree to disagree" category.

If you want to open carry, fine, I have no problem with it. I just choose not to.

Even the most ardent supporter of OC would have to agree that sometimes the manner in which it's done hurts our cause more than helping it.
 
On this forum and elsewhere I often see evidence of those who say they believe in and support the 2nd Amendment, but clearly do not trust others to be responsible in their exercise of this natural right. Its almost like they are saying "the 2nd Amendment gives ME the right to keep and bear arms, but maybe it should not give YOU or others in the unwashed public masses that same right because I KNOW that I am a responsible person but I doubt that the rest of you are as well".
The underlined, Bold section is the key phrase that pops up in almost every OC vs CC thread. It amazes me how many write "I wholeheartedly support our Second Amendment Rights, BUT..." There should be no 'BUT' about it.

To rephrase what RobertJ wrote:
"I support 2A, but I don't like OC"... Okay... So choose not to OC and keep CCing... But Don't restrict others' rights :)
 
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If you don't want a gun, you shouldn't have one. Few things are more dangerous than an apathetic person behind the trigger.

While it may be your right to go purchase a new gun, load it up with ammo, throw it in a safe, and hope it saves your life when the times comes; I also think it's bad gun ownership. Practice with it, improve your shooting skills, make sure it's reliable, make sure it's clean, etc. These are all good ideas.

You can absolutely exercise your right to own and bear arms and be a BAD GUN OWNER.

I always think of a motorist who can't change a flat tire, can't change the oil, can't change a wiper blade, etc. Sure, he can legally operate that car and own it but hes' not really good at it!

Is it a requirement that someone who carries knows how to SAFELY clear a malfunction/jam with their weapon? No. Maybe grandma has the right to tote her .357 revolver, but no one ever showed her how to eject the shells and she can't even get the cylinder open. I feel like this kind of gun ownership is too prevalent and it gives a false assumption of safety. The gun is only going to work as well as the person behind it.

I guess my point is I believe all citizens should have the right to bear arms, and as armed citizens we also have the responsibility to educate and train ourselves. Exercising your right without responsibility, is bad gun ownership.
 
The one thing that makes the US great is our freedom of choice. If you want to OC then you have the right to choose or not. If you allow the government to make that choice for you then we will all lose our rights little by little... The US consitution is full of "checks & balances".. The 2nd amendment is a vital part of that system of checks & balances and it clearly states, "shall not be infringed".

Our rights are indeed being "infringed" and if it wasn't for the people standing up for their rights, we wouldn't have OC pass in Texas.
 
The OP has put his finger directly on the point. Many people are simply unwilling to extend to the general population the same rights they assume for themselves.

This is the heart of Modern American Liberalism (MAL), which exists as a means for the self-perceived MAL to believe himself superior, intellectually and morally, to the common man. The real danger of this arises when the MAL, knowing himself to be superior, assumes the responsibility for dictating to others how they may live their lives and conduct their affairs (all for their own good, of course).

This applies not only to 2A rights, but to every aspect of every citizen's life. The elitist MAL's demand absolute control, and believe they are performing a public service in doing so. Public education becomes public indoctrination. Freedom of speech exists only when everyone agrees and no one is offended. The right to keep and bear arms becomes a system of licensing, permits, and endless restrictions.

Orwell's "1984" was only off by a few decades in its predictions.
 
Vito...

Do you honestly think everyone you know, or know of, should handle a gun? Would you feel safe with anyone having a loaded gun?

It may be a right, but it may be hazardous to your health also.
 
Alot of people say there are, but preface their statement with one or more of the following:

" I'm an NRA member, but....."

" I'm a strong supporter of the 2A, but......"

" I support the 2A but why does anyone need that?......"

" I saw this guy at the range......"

"Ever see the people of Walmart?...."




LOBO nailed it, elitism
 
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If you don't want a gun, you shouldn't have one. Few things are more dangerous than an apathetic person behind the trigger.

While it may be your right to go purchase a new gun, load it up with ammo, throw it in a safe, and hope it saves your life when the times comes; I also think it's bad gun ownership. Practice with it, improve your shooting skills, make sure it's reliable, make sure it's clean, etc. These are all good ideas.

You can absolutely exercise your right to own and bear arms and be a BAD GUN OWNER.

I always think of a motorist who can't change a flat tire, can't change the oil, can't change a wiper blade, etc. Sure, he can legally operate that car and own it but hes' not really good at it!

Is it a requirement that someone who carries knows how to SAFELY clear a malfunction/jam with their weapon? No. Maybe grandma has the right to tote her .357 revolver, but no one ever showed her how to eject the shells and she can't even get the cylinder open. I feel like this kind of gun ownership is too prevalent and it gives a false assumption of safety. The gun is only going to work as well as the person behind it.

I guess my point is I believe all citizens should have the right to bear arms, and as armed citizens we also have the responsibility to educate and train ourselves. Exercising your right without responsibility, is bad gun ownership.
I've read plenty of stories of little old ladies and other novices neatly shooting daylight through their attackers. And plenty of stories of the "educated and trained" recklessly shooting themselves and others. If you notice the pattern of civilian encounters. Having a gun and being willing to use it is by far the most important thing to stopping attacks. Pinpoint precision, speedy reloads, etc rank way down the list.

Common sense alone can allow safe handling of guns, which is many people's complaint. And a little, or lot, of training isn't going to help an idiot be safe.
 
Vito...

Do you honestly think everyone you know, or know of, should handle a gun? Would you feel safe with anyone having a loaded gun?

It may be a right, but it may be hazardous to your health also.
What's your point? Everyone knows people who don't need to be within a mile of a firearms. Many of those are employed and trained by .gov to carry one every day. Always going to be irresponsible people. The solution isn't to punish the people who didn't do it. You have to hold people accountable for their ACTIONS.
 
Within reason...

I think it's a good idea that violent felons aren't allowed to have have guns, or the certifiable insane. If someone is guilty of theft without use of a weapon, I don't have a problem with them and their guns. So, it's not a perfect world, but there are only a few exceptions where people should NOT be able to carry. I have an idea about this I'll bring up in another thread.
 
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Vito...

Do you honestly think everyone you know, or know of, should handle a gun? Would you feel safe with anyone having a loaded gun?

It may be a right, but it may be hazardous to your health also.

You didn't ask me... but I'll give it a shot.

The answer is no. But them having the freedom to is a heck of a lot better than government deciding who should. THAT has proven to be hazardous to the health of countless millions buried in mass graves and enslaved throughout history.
 
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If an oc,cc, illegal carried gun is mishandled it could prove worse than second hand smoke. Makes no difference the manner of carry. A great deal of responsibility is generally associated with a right. I think ole Bill Shakespeare wrote a bit "Much ado about nothing." I think the open carry concept will parallel the concealed carry history. Seldom/few issues.
 
Shucks. I'm disappointed the O.P. used a fellow open carrying as his example. We have indeed beaten to death the wisdom of open carry and mandated training. I was hopping we'd touch on every bureaucrat and school or public institution administrator jumping to the conclusion they can make me safer with rules requiring me to leave my gun in the car and park it out in the public street. The phrase "going postal" refereed to crimes committed by post office employees, not their customers. We've seen more than enough examples of how safe gun free schools make students. I realize the Supremes allowed these regulations to continue but that does not make them good ideas.
 
Hatt and some others got it right. With rights come risks, but I'd rather risk the problems of irresponsible people with firearms than have some government know-it-all decide who can, and who can't own a firearm. What started this thread was my disgust with those who claim to be on the freedom side of our Constitution, but want to decide who else should enjoy that freedom rather than recognize it is a freedom for all of us. Those who do not act responsibly can be legitimately punished for such actions under the law and the rest of us will need to tolerate this for the sake of preserving our freedoms.
 
One of the tenets of western civilization is that rights come with responsibilities.

I am consequently fully supportive of the second amendment - and the responsibilities that go with it.

If enough of us exercise our second amendment rights in an irresponsible manner - in a manner that infringes on the rights of others by making them feel unsafe - then we will ultimately lose our 2A rights, or at a minimum have them significantly curtailed.

The Open Carry demonstrations a year or so ago should have been a wakeup call to the 2A extremist crowd. They carried out 2A open carry demonstrations at businesses without their permission, made their customers uncomfortable, cost those businesses money, and forced those companies to ask people not to open carry in their businesses anymore. This very quickly became a very consistent and predictable pattern.

Rather than figuring out they were being unreasonable heels expecting business owners to pay the freight for their rather juvenile 2A demonstrations, they instead bashed those same businesses for being "anti-gun", while at the same time feeding the anti-gun press all the ammo the needed to portray gun owners as unreasonable and irresponsible rednecks who don't care about other people's rights. Thank God the 2A extremists seem to have gotten most of that out of their systems.

The reality is that those people are a small percentage of the gun owning population, but their stink sticks to all of us, and it threatens the preservation of the 2A.

Like it or not there are 330,000,000 people in the US and not all of them like firearms. All of them however have as much right to feel safe - just like we do. For that reason I conceal carry, and don't even consider open carry in public places. The 2A allows that right to open carry, but just having a right does not mean it is a good idea to exercise that right in an extreme manner that others find offensive when you've got other, better, options. The words used to describe the practice of responsibly exercising a right are words like "common sense", "smart", "civil", and "forward thinking".
 
I'm tired of people whining about open carry. You have to take the good with the bad, folks.
 
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