Dogs again

[SRT]

If the aggressive dog puts you in immediate fear of bodily injury
or death, PUT rounds into him. You have a legal right to protect yourself. If it’s a Pit Bull, keep shooting until it’s down and out. I once witnessed a Pit take four rounds of .40 S&W before it turned and ran off to die. What will the cops say? Good shooting!

 

[delta-419]

Dogs

This is a good thread with a lot of good info. I am a dog owner (German Shepherds) which are scary to most folks in that they see them in war movies and police encounters. Responsible dog owners must exercise control of their animals at all times, no exceptions!
I moved to a remote area of the Florida Panhandle 13 years ago and bought a piece of property off the grid. This after my retirement from DOD in DC. The grid came to my front door and the zoning commission just declared our property a residential area. I am now surrounded by subdivisions and everybody has a dog! I went from protecting my Shepherds with inground shock collars to an 8 foot cattle wire, barbwire, wood horse fence covering 2 acres for a dog run with signs. This protects them and my neighbors. Loose dogs frequent the areas around the subdivisions. It is the dog owners responsibility to control his animals. But, dogs being dogs they do get out, which brings into play the second owners responsibility; training the dog to recall. Well trained dogs are less aggressive . My dogs are part of my security structure. As said above, this thread has a lot of good info!

 

[Walkingwolf]

I don't have a crystal ball, nor am I clairvoyant. I don't see what crystal balls have to do with this, anyway. I asked you a serious question about something you posted in this thread.

Since you quoted me, but edited out my questions, I'll ask them again:



Will you answer the questions or not?

If not, it'll still sound like baloney to me.

It doesn't sound like baloney to me, but I have also dispatched several non aggressive dogs over my lifetime. I didn't try to, or do it intentionally. I must admit it made me ill, and the thought still haunts me. All of them were hit by my car, or truck.

The number of miles a bus driver drives, and the safety of the children comes first. I am only surprised that the number of dogs was only 3.

 

[Smoke]

The school bus driver supposedly "dispatched" three dogs in the course of her duties as a bus driver?

Are you saying she killed them?

If this is true, exactly how did she "dispatch" them?

This sounds like baloney to me.

I think he's saying she ran them over

 

[nachogrande]

NO NEED TO BADMOUTH COLLIES.

You think you got dog problems uh, ever been to South Texas ?
If you was there the cops ain't gonna say nothing cause they shot them every single day.

You a got pit-bull coming at you, don't try to scare him shot 'em !

I was down in the Beaumont/Port Arthur region of Texas back in the 1970's and walking to the corner store, a Collie started following me and then just turn on me for some reason. I had to reach down and get a knife ready for action. Some woman sitting on a porch saw what was about to go down and called the dog off. I'm thinking maybe that dog turned on me because I was getting close to were it lived who knows, but Collies are very unpredictable, they are not Lassie.

Point is, protect yourself at all cost, you got 'stand your ground' in Florida right ?
Were I'm at now we can't even shot them in our homes until we try to escape, guess what. (prove I didn't)


We got a whole bunch of ignorant low information people out here letting their dogs run lose everywhere.
Not to mention letting them **** everywhere and not picking it up. I'm all for dog s just be responsible with them and for them.

I feel your pain brother, good luck to ya.

They are VERY intelligent, loyal, protective & good with kids. MY GUESS, the dog picked up on a bad vibe from the women on the porch, about you, OR you did not fit what the dog was accustomed to, & was protecting it's area.

 

[nachogrande]

IMO 99% BAD OWNERS VS BAD DOGS.

The little rascals dog Petey was a pit. Pre WWll Pits were very popular because they were so good with kids. Dog fighting has given them a bad rap IMO. Plenty of other breeds have a potential to do harm as well.

 

[Wee Hooker]

Sounds like a perfect situation to blast the dog with a liberal dose of bear grade pepper spray. That should teach him to stay away from you (and/or the fence line) without fear that you will get dragged to court ( or lose your right to own a handgun). If that treatment fails (which I doubt), then you would be more justified to use more serious force having tried lesser.

 

[Doug M.]

At the age and physical condition described, screwing around with lesser responses is probably not smart.

Caveats: I'm not in Florida and have no idea what the legal environment would be like. I'm a lawyer (not yours), and get paid to fight stupid stuff. I am a (civil) prosecutor with a lot of criminal experience and still do criminal stuff for my office to help out. Among my assignments is Sheriff's counsel, so I deal with dog problem law. I also research, write, teach and litigate use of force. I am also the guy who helps out or does the work when harsh things need to be done to anyone with whom we are in conflict. I don't even remotely GAF about the feelings or well-being of people who need corrective action - if they lose everything they have and have a miserable existence, they have no one to blame but themselves. (Go to youtube and see what Conan said was best in life.) However, we have dogs (all of whom have been 60-140 pounds, one of whom was truly violent and dangerous to strangers), I much prefer dogs to people, and generally value them higher overall. While I am not interested in harming dogs, I have had to. Never shot one, but did a PR24 spin technique to one that was IN THE AIR leaping toward me, and pepper sprayed a few. Pepper spray is NOT a sure thing at all; don't rely on it.

1) Make a complaint to LE every time there is anything you perceive as a risk. Every single time. Good detailed info. Make sure you make a record of making the complaint - each call, each officer contact, whatever it is. It helps with any possible enforcement action (I'll be doing some litigation of that nature at work this summer as I catch up on other work, and the CAD history and witness/complainant interviews are important. The owner is an irresponsible donkey, with a pack of 9 GSDs he allows to run loose, all of which have ... problems with strangers. All he needs to do is build a fence, but he is too much of a jerk to do so.) Make sure you include in the complaint the facts of your particular vulnerability.

2) Research Florida law and local ordinances. Quite often, the state law can have provisions that would force a resolution, but depending on where you are, such problems can be low priority.

3) Understand that the shooting will be a BFHD. Be prepared for negative feedback, and maybe bogus actions against you. Make sure you are comfortable deadly force as a reasonable response to potentially lethal force against you. Consider developing an attorney client relationship at a low level with a good lawyer. If the environment is such that a good lawyer can persuade cops and prosecutors to not be stupid, a local one is better. If you have to scorch earth, an out of towner is likely to be better because they don't care.

4) Breed generally does not matter - size and temperament does. Most of us can kick a nasty small dog for self-defense. Once you get to 50 pounds or so, it becomes more a problem; less weight for someone like you. A determined 75 pound dog will mess you up. Don't play stupid games in that case.

My wife had a problem with an irresponsible idiot's dog a few weeks ago at our other house. She was walking Ruby and a loose GSD came up and tried to start a fracas. My wife got stepped on, scratched, and maybe a modest bite (unknown which dog did what) as a consequence. The owner of the loose dog is responsible for all of that. The owner was such a buffoon that she was trying to call the dog off with treats instead of taking the urgent steps to impose physical control - to the extent that a neighbor had to stop mowing his law and intervene. I made sure LE was involved, and the cops there did a good job - photos of her injuries, etc. They had no problem at all when I said that had I been there, I would have shot the dog. Period. Warning shot? No. Hell no. Never. Not with a dog, not with a person. Even LE, stuck under the moronic Garner decision needs to give a warning only if feasible, and only with a fleeing felon. Personal defense requires no warning of which I am aware, and you won't have time for talking. If you can LOUDLY make commands to the dog and owner when it is farther away, good. However, warning shots are clownshoes, and almost never prudent. Period.

Am I unpleasant and mean sometimes? Yup, if others make that an appropriate response. Am I wrong? Nope. It is in fact unethical to be considerate of the well-being of ill-doers.

 

[Firesticks]

On Plavix and Xeralto here. Carry a large can of bear spray and your choice of firearm. When using bear spray DO NOT let the animal get close.It is designed to be used in a sweeping motion creating a cloud the critter has to run through. It is MANY times more potent than any pepper spray. It casts the clod many feet out and has much greater range than pepper spray (CS). Firearm ready at the ready if by a minute chance it can continue its charge/attack (exremely unlikely). Pepper spray is designed (and effective) to be sprayed into the face and eyes. Bear spray creates a cloud that blinds instantly, burns the nasal passages making it almost impossible to breath and burns the throat, lips and any other mucous membrane it contacts. This stuff will turn a mother grizzly protecting it's young. A dog has no chance. Stay alert! A severe bite could be fatal!

 

[Chief Wiggums]

document everything.
video that dogs aggressive behavior
speak to LE , document it & show the video
speak to animal control , document it & show the video
speaking to the neighbor , document it & show the video

If you are indeed forced to shoot the dog, be prepared w legal representation

 

[Arizona Ghost]

No calls to the police, no paper trail. Suppressed .22LR, then bury it somewhere. Problem solved, no angry neighbors.

'Guess it ran away...oh well'

 

[Old cop]

Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.

 

[max503]

Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.

I've used Halt a number of times and it has worked every time.

 

[Cal44]

One time last year, I was crossing a nearby park and heard a noise.

There was a Pit Bull charging me at full speed.

I didn't have my CCW with me -- should have I guess.

I was getting a bit worried until he stopped about 10 feet away and started wagging his tail and the whole back end of his body.

He was looking for some petting.

Would have been a shame to shoot him.

I'm a dog lover and agree with the comment there are very few bad dogs -- but a lot of bad owners.

I asked a friend who has worked at the SPCA for 15 years.

They run into aggressive dogs fairly often.

He carries a small compressed air horn -- tuned to a frequency that hurts a dog's ears. It stops the dog in his tracks.

Available in large pet stores.

 

[crstrode]

Dogs do not have tear ducts,

Whoever gave you this tidbit is an idiot. Don't be like that guy.

 

[Cal44]

Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.

I don't know about that.

First are you sure? With no tear ducts, the dogs eye balls would dry out quickly.

Plus, how come the lack of tear ducts results in pepper spray not working? The eyes and nasal passages would still be affected, wouldn't they?

What I have heard, however, is sometimes, on a particular dog, pepper spray has little effect. Same on some humans.

So you can't rely on pepper spray working 100% of the time.

 

[Watchdog]

Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.

Don't know who told you that, but I sure hope you didn't pay for that piece of advice.

 

[smoothshooter]

Pepper mace works great, in my experience.
Do not use the kind that shoots a mist-get the stream-type. The mist is too likely to blow back on you.
It the dog is really agressive, don't bother with the Mace. Use the gun. It can take too long to spray mace, see if it worked, then pull your gun, get on target, and shoot. A dog can cover a lot of ground in that short amount of time. So can a human, for that matter.
I suppose you can hold the gun in your dominant hand, and the mace in the non-dominant hand, and use as necessary, but that's something not to be attempted without a lot of practice.
Getting a good hit or two with the gun (under stress ), while a fast, dangerous animal is coming at you from a low angle is not a piece of cake.

 

[smoothshooter]

Don't know who told you that, but I sure hope you didn't pay for that piece of advice.

Actually, he's partially right.
It's TEAR GAS (CS) that doesn't work very well on dogs sometimes, because they don't have tear ducts that work like ours. Or at least that's what they told us in the Academy.
Some humans, even, are relatively unaffected by pepper spray but they are pretty rare.

 

[RGVshooter]

Dogs do not have tear ducts, so pepper spray will not be any more effective than a garden hose.