Drop your weapon...

[Bozz10mm]

If they don't yell "Drop the weapon", no one would know what to do. It's an ice breaker.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Most criminals are rational actors, by their standards. Very few honest to goodness criminals want to fight the cops. Most of the ones who do either have serious mental health or substance impairment, or are suicidal. The rational actors, when presented a gun pointed at them by someone who appears willing to use it without further ado, will do exactly what they are told.

Ya....but how do you tell them apart.......in the first 2.5 seconds??????






FYI ....I made up the 2.5 seconds..... but in that time I could draw and fire.... 5 to 6 rounds.........

 

[ContinentalOp]

What if you run into a 6 man ISIS beheading squad carrying AK-47s at the local Starbucks?

That's when you deploy the tall, half-caff, no foam, soy mocha frappuccino hand grenades.

 

[Jim1392]

T

Let me get my head around this, Off duty cop holding a suspect,
Uniformed units arrive and shoot the cop in plain cloths.

No verbal commands from the uniforms, no shout out from the cop.
on the job--on the job--
no ID showing, plain cloths are not undercover and carry ID.

Nope--can't get my head around it, F U B A R perhaps.

Lack of verbal commands ? trigger happy ? What they rolled up and just shot the cop ?

I teach one word, STOP, no foul language that can come back on you in court, no 10 word sentences that always come out different.

You might not be able to get you're head around it but google it. The are plenty of documented cases of off duty police officers being shot by on duty officers. Not to mention all the times two off duty officers shot at each other. In my department all uniformed officers at roll call were given the color of the day. What that mean't was all working plain clothes officers were either wearing an arm band with the color or another piece of clothing with the color. But if you were off duty you didn't know the color. Below is an actual shooting in my district that I was not involved in but was working at the time. Not a made up scenario

Newark, NJ, 1970's midnight tour two officers in my district, in uniform and marked unit, are driving down Broad Street in Newark. They come upon a black male standing over another with a gun in hand. Both exited the marked unit and draw their weapons. The male has his back towards the officers and either did not hear them roll up or was just too involved in his arrest (robbery suspect). Officers yell "drop the gun", etc, whatever, I wasn't there. The off duty officer either doesn't hear them or adrenalin is pumping and just spins around. Both officers open fire at him. Remember in those days were were carrying S & W Model 10 revolvers not high capacity automatics. Luckily, both officers miss, he screams "I'm a cop" etc. Remember this all happens in a matter of seconds. So being trigger happy doesn't come into play. You have seconds to decide if you want to die that night. I'm sure there are plenty of other officers here that could give you many other actual events. And this is just one of many that happened during my career and some didn't turn out this well.

 

[BAM-BAM]

We had one in my home town.. 10 or so years ago...IIRC the event correctly........

Search or arrest warrant was being served....... officers entered and were clearing the house from the front door...........

One of the officers at the rear covering the back doors and windows..... entered the house (against the "plan"; again IIRC)...he stepped around a corner...all the officers saw was the flashlight in their eyes ,his outline and his gun (in front of his flashlight)...... shots fired.


Good test of his vest IIRC he was hit 3 or 4 times......

 

[ladder13]

It's hard to believe this was 7 years ago, seems like just yesterday.

The young officer who was killed worked with my wife's cousin.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/nyregion/27shoot.html

 

[BigCityChief]

^Yes - a tragic incident - for all involved.^

 

[cmort666]

1. I'm not a cop, nor do I want to be. I have no desire to put myself in law enforcement situations.
2. If I find myself in a situation where either I or somebody else is in immediate and reasonable fear of life and limb, not only am I not likely to issue any commands or warnings, I'll shoot the assailant in the back if it's tactically advantageous.
   
   One possible exception is finding you in my home uninvited. You'll be told, ONCE, to leave. At that point, if you display a weapon of any kind, or approach me, you're getting shot. If you make haste to leave, you will do so with no more holes in your body than you had when you arrived.

There's no way on earth I'm going to engage in a conversation with somebody who's engaged in an attempt to murder or maim me, or somebody else whom I have a legal right to defend.

I'll leave the witty repartee to the cast of "Law & Order - Elevator Inspection Unit".

 

[calmex]

Well, I'll be no help at all here. I've watched too many movies and don't know anything about the real world.

I always thought that proper tactical doctrine was to take a bite of your hotdog, cock your gun, yell "HALT!!!" and ***KA-BOOM!***

 

[GatorFarmer]

The first thing about "tactical" problems to learn is that all answers are wrong. After that you have a choice of picking least wrong, but those will be highly situational and what works one time might not the next.

I will say that shooting people results in all sorts of questions, paperwork, and missing your favorite tv shows if you forgot to set the dvr. Thus if it can be avoided by verbal interaction, this is better.

However, you have to be correct in your assessment of whether it was in fact the time to talk or the time to shoot.

I live in Wyoming, where cowboy law never died. You do not walk on by. If you do, you will be shunned.

 

[BigBill]

I tend to just dial 911................

On duck dynasty Phil Robertson says he is 911 I agree.

 

[BAM-BAM]

First rule is do no harm.....................

 

[BAM-BAM]

On duck dynasty Phil Robertson says he is 911 I agree.

I don't recommend quoting a "Reality TV star" to the DA or a jury to justify your actions...........................

 

[austinjeane]

Next thing, you will be posting that it's not a good idea for me to chase litterers at high speeds in my '68 green mustang fastback! As for hostage scenarios, I generally shoot the weapon out of their hands.

 

[BAM-BAM]

Next thing, you will be posting that it's not a good idea for me to chase litterers at high speeds in my '68 green mustang fastback! As for hostage scenarios, I generally shoot the weapon out of their hands.

LOL Sweet ride........... You; Dale and Roy are GTG!!!!!

Happy Trails.................

 

[Old cop]

As a uniformed officer I responded to a call of a guy in a public venue who had taken a hostage at knife point. I asked him over several minutes to drop the knife and let the hostage go (we were face-to-face about three yards apart). He refused to acknowledge me, drop the knife or let the hostage go. When he lunged at me I fired (S&W Model 15) and the hostage was freed unhurt.

Given that experience I would not intervene in a confrontation like this absent police authority. Most will not have the training or experience to deal with this, and if things do not turn out well your civil exposure will be costly. This suspect recovered from the injuries I inflicted and filed a civil action, but I had the jurisdiction to cover my actions.

 

[cmort666]

This suspect recovered from the injuries I inflicted and filed a civil action, but I had the jurisdiction to cover my actions.

That's just one of the things I love about Ohio.

In a justified shooting, your assailant can sue you all day long. By law, he can't recover a PENNY. Good luck finding a lawyer who'll represent you knowing he won't get paid, even if you win.

 

[6thtexas]

https://youtu.be/L-y0adUg6kA

 

[66 shooter]

This has gone just about far enough, but let me interject one more scenario that the OP has obviously not considered. The "suspect" holding a "hostage" at gunpoint.

The "suspect" is a plain-clothes Police officer holding a prisoner at gunpoint. You mis-interpret the evidence, shoot the officer, the suspect grabs the officers gun, says thanks and runs off. Sound far-fetched? It has happened almost exactly as described, only the "Good Samaritan" was a uniformed officer of a large metropolitan PD who shot and killed the plain clothes officer because he didn't recognize him as he was from a different precinct! This has happened, more than once, in NYC and Chicago that I know of, and likely other cities too!

Do you really wish to be the one trying to explain your actions to the court when you are charged with killing a Police officer?

Well said, Sir.

 

[Doug M.]

Ya....but how do you tell them apart.......in the first 2.5 seconds??????

FYI ....I made up the 2.5 seconds..... but in that time I could draw and fire.... 5 to 6 rounds.........

*
Go to the prior response I made."If one does not have a visible weapon, other than personal weapons (hands/feet), the idea of the verbal commands is to reduce the odds of them being stupid and doing something that is or looks like a draw. If they have started the drawing motion, it may already be too late, and it sure as heck is not time to be talking. It's time to move and shoot."

Almost certainly, if one wastes the time with a verbal prompt, it is not a good choice. The difference between a serious criminal and those impaired by substances and/or mental health is not relevant to the use of force analysis. If the threat reasonably appears to be sufficient, that's all that matters.