Drop your weapon...
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Interesting points, ISCS Yoda.
Interesting points, but terrible advice (regarding post #14).
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Gee, I'm glad the guys on that French train didn't just dial 911!
66 shooter
Member
In your scenario, I did not catch where you described where YOU feared for YOUR life or safety...remember in a situation like that, probably law enforcement will be responding and they see you with a gun pointed at someone, you will probably be the one shot. Best advice, even though you have good intentions...call 911, be a good witness, and let the Police handle the situation.
This and OP are far from the same thing..............
in the OP you're trying to live a movie ........ french train your trying to keep yourself (and because of the unique circumstances; others) from being shot or killed..........
Aticus
Member
Oh Lordy, I love these scenarios. It's always interesting to read the responses. No one can give a proper answer to such questions because every one of these scenarios is a different situation and would require a different response.
Please don't take this as downer criticism. These threads are always entertaining and please keep those cards and letters coming.
Please don't take this as downer criticism. These threads are always entertaining and please keep those cards and letters coming.
Alk8944
US Veteran
This has gone just about far enough, but let me interject one more scenario that the OP has obviously not considered. The "suspect" holding a "hostage" at gunpoint.
The "suspect" is a plain-clothes Police officer holding a prisoner at gunpoint. You mis-interpret the evidence, shoot the officer, the suspect grabs the officers gun, says thanks and runs off. Sound far-fetched? It has happened almost exactly as described, only the "Good Samaritan" was a uniformed officer of a large metropolitan PD who shot and killed the plain clothes officer because he didn't recognize him as he was from a different precinct! This has happened, more than once, in NYC and Chicago that I know of, and likely other cities too!
Do you really wish to be the one trying to explain your actions to the court when you are charged with killing a Police officer?
The "suspect" is a plain-clothes Police officer holding a prisoner at gunpoint. You mis-interpret the evidence, shoot the officer, the suspect grabs the officers gun, says thanks and runs off. Sound far-fetched? It has happened almost exactly as described, only the "Good Samaritan" was a uniformed officer of a large metropolitan PD who shot and killed the plain clothes officer because he didn't recognize him as he was from a different precinct! This has happened, more than once, in NYC and Chicago that I know of, and likely other cities too!
Do you really wish to be the one trying to explain your actions to the court when you are charged with killing a Police officer?
T
Let me get my head around this, Off duty cop holding a suspect,
Uniformed units arrive and shoot the cop in plain cloths.
No verbal commands from the uniforms, no shout out from the cop.
on the job--on the job--
no ID showing, plain cloths are not undercover and carry ID.
Nope--can't get my head around it, F U B A R perhaps.
Lack of verbal commands ? trigger happy ? What they rolled up and just shot the cop ?
I teach one word, STOP, no foul language that can come back on you in court, no 10 word sentences that always come out different.
Let me get my head around this, Off duty cop holding a suspect,
Uniformed units arrive and shoot the cop in plain cloths.
No verbal commands from the uniforms, no shout out from the cop.
on the job--on the job--
no ID showing, plain cloths are not undercover and carry ID.
Nope--can't get my head around it, F U B A R perhaps.
Lack of verbal commands ? trigger happy ? What they rolled up and just shot the cop ?
I teach one word, STOP, no foul language that can come back on you in court, no 10 word sentences that always come out different.
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Its scenarios like this and others that really make me shake my head and wonder what some individuals here, and on other forums feel they are going to get into, when they discuss carrying multiple guns, with multiple reloads for each..... Some of you fellas are packing more firepower than most cops.... With very few exceptions, not many Police involved shootings involve an officer needing to reload, or switch guns.....
Feel free to flame or enlighten me......
Feel free to flame or enlighten me......
wingriderz
Member
Cal44
Member
A person needs to be prepared for whatever happens.
Don't you believe in being prepared?
What if you run into a 6 man ISIS beheading squad carrying AK-47s at the local Starbucks?
Then I'm in the wrong place, or will have to pick up an AK when my gun runs dry, should I be still standing going up against 6 guys armed with AK's with nothing but a Shield or Glock..... Guess I need to up my game, and throw on some body armor with trauma plates, a blow out kit, and see if I can pick up a compact plasma rifle in the 40 watt range..... I saw that in a movie once too.....
Bend over and kiss my *** goodbye..........
It's like the IDPA courses where you're asked engaging 6 shooters all at less than 10 yds ........ while retreating ..... engaging "Tactically" ........
.......IMHO I might get one or two....... but six........... only Bruce Willis or Brad Pitt could pull that off............. OK maybe that Jason Bourne guy!!!!
Many years ago one of the major networks (ABC, CBS, NBC) ran a program for a couple of weeks - or so - called SHOOT - DON'T SHOOT.........
The camera was your eyes and only displayed what you saw.
Scenarios were scary on how many times I shot the good guy!!!
Never "assume" anything unless you are there at the start!!
The camera was your eyes and only displayed what you saw.
Scenarios were scary on how many times I shot the good guy!!!
Never "assume" anything unless you are there at the start!!
Noooooo!, After you run your primary weapon dry, you reholster it, and do a NY reload with your secondary, then transition back to your primary, doing a tactical reload, while dragging your family to a safe place. Then you re-engage with your other 4 mags, OC spray and when that runs dry, your ASP baton, then wait for the po-lice to arrive and give you medals and stuff....
Doug M.
Member
*
Maybe. The only general requirement for that entry to be lawful is a warrant. Almost never will a warrantless entry be lawful, and on the rare occasions when it is, an announcement is stupid because there is an apparent life threatening emergency that simply will not allow for delay.
A police officer also does not have to announce the intent to use force (the lawful ability to direct an action carries with it the authority compel compliance without further conversation), with the limited exception of "a warning, if feasible" prior to using deadly force on a dangerous fleeing felon. (The Garner case fact pattern.) Agencies train it not because it is a good practice (it often is not, tactically) or legally required (it is not, as pointed out), but for political reasons. The staggering ignorance of the law and tactics of force utilization throughout most of the general population, and much to my horror and shame, the vast majority of LE command officers, leads to the development of practices that are not wise, let alone required by law. They exist solely as theater to placate the whiners who think there is some fairness requirement or some such. Hot tip: A uniformed cop with a firearm in the hand is all the warning you should expect. If one does not have a visible weapon, other than personal weapons (hands/feet), the idea of the verbal commands is to reduce the odds of them being stupid and doing something that is or looks like a draw. If they have started the drawing motion, it may already be too late, and it sure as heck is not time to be talking. It's time to move and shoot.
Only once can I recall a temptation to get involved as a private citizen. I walking the dogs last spring when I saw an officer make an obvious Terry stop (contact a suspicious person). I was walking toward that intersection, and of course stopped once I saw the nature of the encounter. I could not see the suspect's hands, and the officer was alone. I crossed the street so I was at an angle to the encounter, and a good 20+ yards away. I knew the suspect was prepping to run (visual cues easy to see if one is used to them), but for some reason, he did not seem to like the idea of running toward us. I considered calling dispatch and requesting another officer, but I was sure they would consider me a crackpot, not someone with a clue. As soon he turned and moved, I called 911 and let them know what I could tell about the direction and that they were in back yards. An officer I know came in to the area, but went too far past the right area, so I moved that direction. It took a moment, but I figured out where they were, and using a phrase I figured the cop would figure out under stress, asked of his well-being. He replied and asked me to stay back, and I did, waving other officers into the right driveway. I later gave a statement, and a couple officers thanked me for paying attention.
I made up my mind that unless I heard a shot, I was not getting closer, as I would probably make it worse. If I could otherwise tell the officer was losing a fight, I would have joined in. (Not as a wrestler - by kicking or shooting the offender in the head. Deadly force either way, yeah, but if the cop is down, easily justified. 11.5EEE boots on a 6'1 235 pound male is darned sure deadly, and I won't care in that situation.) Had the offender come out of that yard alone, I might have deployed the dogs or drawn on him, because that meant the officer was down. This is MY personal decision and comfort level, but I live in the system, I know and teach use of force, and I was willing to set my risk level at a particular point. As I am now retired from LE, the legal standards are looser for me as a private citizen (the 4th amendment does not apply to private citizens, and our statutes track the 4th amendment for cops, but are closer to the old common law rules for civilians). I can articulate my perceptions and reasons for my actions, and I know the local legal climate. One would have to do something completely cuckoo to have a risk of legal problems for helping a cop.
Wrong.
You are wrong. On more than one occasion in my career the fact the perpetrator did drop his weapon at my command saved said perp from being shot by me.
Be safe.
You are wrong. On more than one occasion in my career the fact the perpetrator did drop his weapon at my command saved said perp from being shot by me.
Be safe.
Doug M.
Member
Most criminals are rational actors, by their standards. Very few honest to goodness criminals want to fight the cops. Most of the ones who do either have serious mental health or substance impairment, or are suicidal. The rational actors, when presented a gun pointed at them by someone who appears willing to use it without further ado, will do exactly what they are told.
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