Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

[biku324]

I carried this on duty as a backup and off duty load from 1983 to retirement, then since when I carry my M49. I keep it in my wife's Security Six as well.

5.0 to 5.5 grains of Unique with any LHP pretty duplicates the FBI load, but be careful - that is a max +P charge.

 

[ddixie884]

If you go to the on-line VV data they list one load with a 158gr plated bullet with 6.8gr of N340. Hoptob said in the OP that 6.7gr equals the BB +P load. Think about it...........

 

[Nevada Ed]

I'm going to try experimenting with loading some "FBI"-ish loads too.

I have some soft swagged Speer 158 gr SWC HPs (product code 4627) that I'm going to load up to around 800 fps, and some harder cast 158gr SWC HPs that I'm going to load at around 1000 fps.

I say it is an experiment because I'm going to be loading at least some of them in 357 cases to use with a 7-shot titanium revolver - as well as some in 38 special cases for my older M60.

In my J frame snub nose with the Speer 158 LHP bullet......
I could get 800fps with Red Dot powder and w231 powders.
Bullseye did not make it with my full load per my data sheets.

If you have some Green Dot, Unique or Blue Dot the "FBI Load" can be reached but I like just 822fps in the light J frame.

K frames wil handle the "Real deal" all day long.
My 6" can get the Speer up to 1124fps with Blue Dot in a 38 spl. case.

 

[rockquarry]

This will vary from one shooter to another, but I shoot .38 Special J-frames a good bit, and around 750 fps in a Model 60 with a 158 grain SWC is a handful, but manageable. Hitting the target consistently is a lot more important than additional velocity, but if you can do it with higher velocity loadings, then that's good.

 

[Nevada Ed]

This will vary from one shooter to another, but I shoot .38 Special J-frames a good bit, and around 750 fps in a Model 60 with a 158 grain SWC is a handful, but manageable. Hitting the target consistently is a lot more important than additional velocity, but if you can do it with higher velocity loadings, then that's good.

+1;
When "Doubble tapping" with the little J frame........

you will quickly learn how much fps you can handle to get the 2nd shot onto a target , where it counts.

A lot of "Things" are needed to get it all, to come together.

 

[brucev]

GREAT thread and comments. Once upon a time I was a charter member of the Zippidooda Young and Dumb School of Applied Ballistics. It only cost me the price of a (ca. 1982) S&W 28-2 to earn my degree with honors in More Is Sometimes Less!

Now ... almost 40 years later ... I'm worried!!! This thread is making me think I need some "continuing education!" I've got a nice ... really really nice pair of 4" and 6" Highway Patrolmen revolvers, both 28-2's. And ... I have a extremely nice six inch 686! And then there are the 4" 19 and 66 ... and dare I think it ... there is that nice crisp 15-2 that just shoots so good. What am I going to do?

It's been almost 40 years! Here I am now not far from beginning all over again! I've got primers (wonder of wonders!) and I've got cases (happy!) and ... I've got some powders. Looks like my new year is going to be titled ... Back To The Beginning! And ... It's all ya'll's fault! You! I feel prayer is in order. "God forgive me for the things I have done ... and for what I am about to do!" Happy New Year to all! Sincerely. bruce.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

2 Comments:

This thread should be nicknamed LAZARUS as it has been resurrected so many times...!

I wonder how many FBI agents ever shot J-Frames on a regular basis?

Cheers!

P.S. Make that three comments: GREAT THREAD!

 

[John Patrick]

+1;
When "Doubble tapping" with the little J frame........

you will quickly learn how much fps you can handle to get the 2nd shot onto a target , where it counts.

A lot of "Things" are needed to get it all, to come together.

The first being regular practice, of course. I’ve found that moving and turning target carriers really, really help, as do steel target ranges with lots of steel targets, though less so.

But in my experience, no matter how focused you are when you practice, you are not nearly as focused as when you are faced with a living target or, especially, in a potentially life and death situation.

I haven’t been in any potentially life threatening situations with any handguns, but I have Cape Buffalo and elephant hunting with a 458wm. My loads were stiffer than any factory loads at the time. In practice I rocked with recoil and there was substantial muzzle rise, but facing a Cape buffalo or elephant their was just enough recoil and report for me to know the rifle fired. Most caught on still or video.

Similarly, I got a bloody nose every time I zeroed my 12ga slug gun and dreaded it, I actually think perceived practice recoil was worse with the the deer shotgun than the elephant rifle. But I never got a bloody nose or noticed much recoil shooting deer.

I suspect that if I have to use any of my handguns in self defense it will be similar, little perceived recoil, little muzzle rise, relatively little report.

 

[Univibe]

Looks like this one .38 load worked out, but I'd be very circumspect about duplicating Buffalo Bore or similar loads with canister powders. BB may be using more exotic techniques such as triplex powders. They can test for pressure whereas we have to depend on published data. Be very careful.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I carried this on duty as a backup and off duty load from 1983 to retirement, then since when I carry my M49. I keep it in my wife's Security Six as well.

5.0 to 5.5 grains of Unique with any LHP pretty duplicates the FBI load, but be careful - that is a max +P charge.

I found with my M49 and the lead HP bullet..........
that I can drop from .3 to .5 grains of powder and get almost the same fps
when I add a Heavy crimp to the lead bullet.

Take care, everyone.

 

[ddixie884]

Hoptob had another thread about VV powders. He posted chrono data on Speer 135gr GDHPSB in .38spl on 7.5gr VV3N37 at 998fps in a 1 7/8" J-frame and 1011fps from an SP101 2 1/4". Larry Gibson tested this load for me in his Contender with pressure trace at an even 20,000psi for a 10 shot average. It went 1203 from his 7.9" solid barrel.

The thread was entitled; "Are the guns weaker on this side of the pond".

Hoptob's other thread was locked but you can use the search feature to find it. I brought it to the top a few years ago and my post was deleted and the thread was locked.....................

 

[mscampbell2734]

Given all the research out there I really think the BB load is closer to the 38/44 Heavy Duty load then the FBI load. The 38/44 load was way hot and intended only for use in the larger frame, Smith N frame and Colt New Service, instead of regular 38s like the Colt Police Positive Special,

The FBI load was intended for k frame and similar service revolvers, not heavy large frame guns.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO duplicating the BB load is not needed. I have always tried to duplicate the original FBI load which was street proven in their service M10 and Chiefs Special revolvers.

 

[sigp220.45]

2 Comments:

This thread should be nicknamed LAZARUS as it has been resurrected so many times...!

I wonder how many FBI agents ever shot J-Frames on a regular basis?

Cheers!

P.S. Make that three comments: GREAT THREAD!

Agents would have to qualify with a J-frame (known as a “five-shot” in Bu-speak) once a year, since it was a privately-owned, Bureau-approved gun. Quals for an issued gun would be four times a year.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Agents would have to qualify with a J-frame (known as a “five-shot” in Bu-speak) once a year, since it was a privately-owned, Bureau-approved gun. Quals for an issued gun would be four times a year.

Very interesting...

Were there other privately-owned, Bureau-approved gun(s), (arguably back-ups?) that come to mind? Would a Charter Arms have qualified?

One would imagine the choices today would be pretty well-populated (Shields, GX4, Mako, SIG P365, MAX-9, small 380acp automatics, etc.) if the same kind of program is still in effect...?

CHEERS!

 

[sigp220.45]

Very interesting...

Were there other privately-owned, Bureau-approved gun(s), (arguably back-ups?) that come to mind? Would a Charter Arms have qualified?

One would imagine the choices today would be pretty well-populated (Shields, GX4, Mako, SIG P365, MAX-9, small 380acp automatics, etc.) if the same kind of program is still in effect...?

CHEERS!

When I joined in 1991 almost any steel framed S&W .38 or .357 was authorized, as were most 9mm and .45 ACP Smiths and Sigs. No nickle finishes or Airweights, though stainless was fine.

When I retired in 2016 only Glock 9mms and .40s were still on the POW list. My Sig .45 was grandfathered in, but six months after I retired NO .45s were authorized.

During my time no Colts or other brands were authorized (until Glocks were approved). I knew one guy who had a Colt Trooper grandfathered in in the 90s, but once he retired I never saw another Colt.

 

[SuperMan]

...funny that this thread comes back again...I just got notice today that the two boxes of BB ammo I ordered this weekend was shipped...a box of the 158 LSCGC-HP and one 158 Outdoorsman...

Had seen the Outdoorsman load before but until about a year ago when YouTuber Gun_Sam did a video on the .38 HP and the .44 Special HP didn't realize that BB had a LHP that hot...

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJYsc6PdEM&t=275s[/ame]



Really didn't need the ammo as I make basically the same rounds myself with a home cast MP Molds copy of the 358156 Lyman/Thompson Gas Check bullet that also has a HP option. With 6.0 grains of Unique it is just short of the BB loads...but wanted to run my own tests in my guns.

As to these two loads being more like the original .38-44 High Speed Load they are 100% correct. I posted this over on another Forum about the .38-44 and the BB loads:

Was looking at a 1948 SHOOTERS BIBLE last night. In the factory cartridge section it has listed the loads that were available in .38-44.

Remington and Peters:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
110 grain "SPL" (Highway Patrol Metal Piercing)

Winchester:
158 grain Lead
158 grain Metal Piercing
150 grain Metal Piercing

Western:
150 grain Lubaloy Coated
150 grain Metal Piercing
200 grain Lubaloy Coated

In the Factory Ballistics section they list all the Remington and Peters 158 grain loads (Lead and MP) at 1115 fps.

Western 150 grain (MP and Lead) at 1175 fps

Winchester 150 MP at 1175 and the 158 Lead 1115

All were listed from a 5" barrel. It also states that the .38-44 loads were now DISCONTINUED probably because the .357 was introduced.

...a shame that the other Highway Patrol loads were not listed...would have been interesting.

Found a S&W Factory brochure probably from just before the .357 was introduced, as it was not listed as a factory round. The listed velocity of the 158 grain .38-44 was 1125 fps, 444 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 12 7/8" pine boards spaced 7/8" apart. It did not list a barrel length. By comparison the .38 Special 158 grain bullet was 847 fps with 252 ft. pounds of energy and penetrated 8.5 boards. The .44 Special 246 grain bullet was 767 fps and 323 ft. pounds and penetrated 7.5 boards...

These velocities correspond with the loads in the old Lyman Reloading Manual I have. The Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman and LSWC-HP loads are just a little faster than these old factory 158s and the same as the 150s.

From the BB Website:
Item 20A: 158gr., very soft cast, semi wad cutter, (Keith) hollow cavity, with a gas check. This bullet will mushroom violently on impact and will penetrate roughly 14 inches in human flesh. Again, this bullet is gas checked and will not lead your barrel.

➤ 1,040 fps (379 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 60, 2-inch
➤ 1,059 fps (393 ft. lbs.) -- S&W mod. 66, 2.5-inch
➤ 1,143 fps (458 ft. lbs.) -- Ruger SP101, 3-inch
➤ 1,162 fps (474 ft. lbs.) -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch

ITEM 20H

PRESS RELEASE FOR BUFFALO BORE 38 SPL +P 158gr. HARD CAST OUTDOORSMAN

This load was designed for those who need a deep penetrating 357 mag. or 38 SPL load to be fired from lightweight alloy 357’s and any 38 SPL revolver. Lightweight alloy 357’s develop multiple problems when firing our 180gr. 357 mag. hard cast turbocharged (Item 19A) ammo or any make of full power 357 ammo. Yet many folks want a deep penetrating “outdoor” type of load for their lightweight pocket 357’s, so here it is. Whether you are shooting gators or bears in the head, this load utilizes a hard flat nosed bullet, at sufficient velocity, even from 2-inch barrels, to fully penetrate either.

This load is safe to shoot in all 38SPL and 357 magnum firearms of modern design that are in normal operating condition. In the super lightweight alloy revolvers (around 11-12 oz.) the bullet will not jump crimp under recoil provided you do not subject an unfired round to more than 5 or 6 firings. In all steel guns, even short barreled ones, crimp jump is not an issue as all steel snub-nosed revolvers are much heavier than the alloy versions.

This load utilizes a flash retardant powder that will not blind the shooter in low light conditions, which is important as wildlife and criminals get much more active when darkness comes.

This bullet is hard cast and properly lubed and as such will not substantially lead your barrel. You should find no degradation of accuracy when firing many cylinders full of this ammo without cleaning.

We never use extra long laboratory barrels to produce our advertised velocities, which we feel is dishonest to the customer as those extra long barrels produce extra high velocities, which you cannot duplicate with stock revolvers in the real world. Instead, we use stock firearms and you can see the velocity results below.

➤ 1255 fps -- Ruger GP 100, 6 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1186 fps -- S&W Combat Masterpiece 6 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1958)
➤ 1146 fps -- S&W Mt. Gun, 4-inch barrel, 357 Mag.
➤ 1167 fps -- S&W Mod. 15, 4 inch barrel, 38 SPL (circa 1968)
➤ 1112 fps -- Ruger SP 101, 3 inch barrel, 38 SPL
➤ 1043 fps -- S&W Mod 66, 2.5 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 989 fps -- S&W Mod 340PD, 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 357 mag.
➤ 1027 fps -- S&W Mod 642 (pre-dash), 1 & 7/8 inch barrel, 38 SPL




As to reloading these rounds, I posted the following:

Went and found the two old Lyman manuals I have...

The earlier one is missing the cover which had the Edition and Copyright date. It is after 1935 however as the .357 Magnum is listed. The handgun loads have both jacketed and cast bullets listed.

The later one is #43 and dated 1964...just a couple of years before I started reloading... It has cast bullets only.

Earlier Manual: .38 Special High Velocity

148 Grain Cast Hollow Base #358395
Unique 7.7 grains: 1285 fps
2400 13.5 grains : 1380

150 grain 358156 Thompson H.P. Gas Check
Unique 6.4 grains: 1154 fps
2400 13.5 grains: 1227 fps

155 grain Keith Hollow Point and Hollow Base #358439
2400 12.0 grains: 1230 fps

158 grain Thompson Cast Plain Base #358156 (I think that this is a typo as on the previous page of standard .38 Special loads it says Gas Check)
2400 11.8 grains: 1210

No barrel length is listed...


Manual #43 (for most of the same bullets as in the earlier manual)

148 grain HB-WC #335395
Unique: 3.5 grains/720 6.4 grains/1155
2400: 9.0 grains/940 13.5 grains/1380

150 grain L/T GC HP #358156
Unique: 5.0 grains/880 6.8 grains/1100
2400: 9.5 grains/925 13.0/1310

158 grain L/T GC #358156 or #358311 (RN PB)
Unique: 5.0 grains/850 6.0 grains/1060
2400: 9.5 grains/915 12.5 grains/1240

165 grain Keith solid #358429
Unique: 5.0 grains/810 6.0 grains/1010
2400: 9.5 grains/875 10.5 grains/1025


I use the 6.0 grains of Unique load with the Lyman/Thompson GC in both solid and HP. I have not chronoed the 6.0 but my first batch was 5.8 and got the following with the solid bullet.

S&W 649-1 2": 996 fps
S&W 60-10 3": 1044 fps
S&W Heavy Duty 4": 1114 fps
S&W Pre-27 6": 1121 fps

I'm expecting 15-25 fps more on average from the extra 2/10s of a grain..that should put it just above where the original factory loadings were and a little less than the Buffalo Bore.

As to these loads in the little 649 J-frame...it has a second cylinder for .38 Super and 9mm via moon clips. If it will handle 35k psi loads from those cartridges there isn't much to worry about with maybe 25k psi from a .38 Special +P+ that is probably 10K psi less in pressure. Ejection was smooth and primers round...

Start low and work up using a chronograph...



And that is the question I always ask about blowing up a MODERN good quality .38 Special... IF S&W, Charter Arms and Taurus can all make J-frame size guns in 9mm and they don't blow up or prematurely wear out, why does everyone get in a tizzy about a 25K psi .38 Special load when it is 10K psi less in the SAME GUN in 9mm... Funny isn't it that BB can come up with a LSWC-HP round that is doing an honest 1000 fps from a 2" barrel and says it is just fine in any gun of modern manufacture...including lightweight Js...

The .38 Super suffers from the same problem...because it evolved from the .38 AUTO the BIG Three hold velocities down to not much more than the .38 AUTO was...but the boutique makers seem to have no problems besting the BIG THREEs by 1-300 fps...makes it a REAL Super...not just a .38 AUTO +P. And I don't hear of any complaints of them blowing up guns...

And what about the .44 Special...same exact boat...

If you want to hold back a great round that has lots of potential just because some uneducated person puts a +P round in their 1900 vintage S&W and cracks the cylinder..not my problem.

So you want to be stuck with marginal...lackluster FBI Load...your right to do so... I'll stay with the BB loads...


Bob

 

[jem102]

Looks like this one .38 load worked out, but I'd be very circumspect about duplicating Buffalo Bore or similar loads with canister powders. BB may be using more exotic techniques such as triplex powders. They can test for pressure whereas we have to depend on published data. Be very careful.

I believe you are correct on this. As I understand, the "blended" non canister powders are "closed bomb" tested to achieve the best pressure/velocity ratios. So in a sense these folks (the ammunition manufactures) have a special "one of" powders. It may look like what we buy at the LGS...but it ain't the same...

 

[cowboy4evr]

The only time I ever eventually had a problem using earlier day +P loads was in a 642 J frame airweight . After many thousand of rounds it really loosened up . I contacted S&W , was honest and just told them I shot it to death . He laughed , said send it back . In about 4 wks it came back , good as new . I don't buy the latest load manuals . I don't care about the newest powders . I have what works for me using the older manuals . My favorite load in a 44 special is what is commonly known as the Skeeter Skelton load , 7.5 grs of Unique with the Keith 245 gr swc (H&G 503 ) and yes I have that mold . Actually he got that from Elmer Keith but most don't know that . Regards Paul

 

[Model 15-4ever]

Here's a few loads I shot in Clear Ballistics Gel.

The Rimrock SWCHP-GC bullet is what Buffalo Bore uses. This was handloaded with an old-school dose of HS-6. It's 100 fps faster than the Remington LSWCHP "FBI" +P load shown. But the same velocity as the Buffalo Bore claimed "standard pressure" load.... doubt that load is "standard pressure".