Early K Frame Target Barrel Lengths - Please Post Your 4" & 8"

[glowe]

Recently received my acquisition of a 4" 38 Model 1902 Target to add to all the other K frame barrel lengths made from 1899 to 1910. Using what resources are available, my collection, old SWCA database, and by observation, barrel lengths for target revolvers ran from the most common, just over half were 6.5", somewhere close to one-third were 6", around 10% were 5", and 4" & 8" comprise maybe 1%. The search for these five barrel length target revolvers took a long time to complete. I have no hopes of obtaining this feat with any specific model, 1899, 1902, or 1905 made 1910 or before, so this will have to do.

K frame service revolvers made 1910 or before were also available in all barrel lengths. 4", 5", 6", and 6.5" were available except for the years 1903 to 1906, when 6" barrels were not standard order items. Of all frames made from 1899 to 1909 percentage of each barrel length was different than target models. Best I can estimate around 40% were 6.5", 25% 6", 15% were 5", and 20% were 4". 8" whether factory or Pope accounted for just a handful of guns.

I was questioning why shooters would want a 4" Target gun? Mike Priwer once told me that shooting matches of the era offered short barrel completions, so one needed a 4" to compete in that class. Here is the 4" and the other barrel lengths.

 

[quinn]

Outstanding collection Gary, and great research. Thank you.

 

[glowe]

Interesting that no one posted either 4" or 8" Early K frame Targets, so let's get at it.

 

[Keith Brown]

Here is a four inch.

 

[cgt4570]

I know a little bit, but I learned something from this post! I never knew early M&P targets were produced with barrels longer that 6.5" from the factory. I have an affinity for long for frame size barrels. .22 Single Shots, small top breaks in 6", my Ladysmith 3rd target 6", even my 'modern' 29-3 Silhouette 10-5/8". I have a custom K22 and .44 Special 2nd
revolving rifle with 16" barrels using S&W tear gas grenade launcher butt stocks.
I even have a couple non-smiths with unique custom long barrels. One is a Martini-Henry action single shot handgun with a shortened Ruger #1 .45-70 barrel.

 

[glowe]

Here is a four inch.

Is it from the '20s or '30s? Serial number? I don't think I have too many from that era in the database.

 

[glowe]

I know a little bit, but I learned something from this post! I never knew early M&P targets were produced with barrels longer that 6.5" from the factory . . .

I know of a handful of 8" guns made by the factory and a few 8" guns barreled by Pope. Mike Priwer will be along soon to show what I recall as a factory lettered 8". Mine is different. The barrel length was not documented in the factory records and Mike thinks I have a factory made barrel blank that was rifled by Pope. According to Mike, Pope did not make barrels with forged front sight bases and lugs, but would solder those on his own manufactured barrels. S&W, of course, always forged front sights and bases when making their barrels. There are reports of the factory sending guns to Pope directly, so a business relationship did exist and Pope likely purchased barrel blanks as well from S&W when they made a brief run of long barrels.

 

[red9]

Here is my 8" barreled Pope:

Bob

 

[glowe]

Here is my 8" barreled Pope: . . .

That barrel show three aspects of how a Pope barrel differs from a factory 8" barrel. First is that most, but not all Pope barrels were stamped as such. Second, the under barrel lug on Pope barrels was squared off in the front, not sculpted like S&W barrels. Third, both the lug and the front sight base were soldered on the barrel and not forged like S&W. Interesting that the front sight was set back so far? Competition rules stated that the maximum sighting distance had to be 10" or less which I am sure your barrel measures.

 

[Keith Brown]

Gary, my four inch serial # 357319 pictured above, lettered to Shelton-Payne arm Company, El Paso Texas, November 24, 1920.

Love the Pope guns and remember some of them coming to auction but not bidding which I now very much regret.

 

[glowe]

Gary, my four inch serial # 357319 pictured above, lettered to Shelton-Payne arm Company, El Paso Texas, November 24, 1920.

Love the Pope guns and remember some of them coming to auction but not bidding which I now very much regret.

Hey, thanks, but it has MADE IN USA on the frame? The MADE IN USA stamping ordered in May 1922 around SN 405,000

 

[handejector]

Keith,
Did your gun come with the Ropers? Nice gun!


Gary,
Nice collection! I assume your 4" is a 1902-1st Change?

I was questioning why shooters would want a 4" Target gun? Mike Priwer once told me that shooting matches of the era offered short barrel completions, so one needed a 4" to compete in that class.

I recall reading of "Pocket Revolver" matches. In the old days of large coat pockets and usually longer barrels, I think 4" guns were considered Pocket revolvers.

QUESTION-
Are the Pope and Factory 8" guns truly 8 inches, or are any of them 8-3/8"?

I have not had any 4" Targets, but I've seen a few over the years. I have had two 5" Targets if you want to see them.

 

[handejector]

Hey, thanks, but it has MADE IN USA on the frame? The MADE IN USA stamping ordered in May 1922 around SN 405,000

It also has a barrel shaped ejector knob?????

 

[Keith Brown]

Well all good questions ! There are no rework marks and serial number is in all the correct places. No stars of signs of anything being changed, finish is very consistent throughout. I suppose I could ask Don for a re-letter.

 

[Keith Brown]

The Ropers were on it, maybe for awhile but no way to know.

 

[glowe]

. . . Nice collection! I assume your 4" is a 1902-1st Change?
I recall reading of "Pocket Revolver" matches. In the old days of large coat pockets and usually longer barrels, I think 4" guns were considered Pocket revolvers.

QUESTION-
Are the Pope and Factory 8" guns truly 8 inches, or are any of them 8-3/8"?

I have not had any 4" Targets, but I've seen a few over the years. I have had two 5" Targets if you want to see them.

Yes, 1st Change shipped in June 1904. Mike Priwer has some documentation on Pocket Pistol matches from around 1907 from the US Revolver Association stating the maximum barrel length for a pocket pistol was 4", but if you measure the sighting distance it is just over 5". Not certain how they qualified barrel length versus sight distance? Those guns I have seen with descriptions have stated 8" barrel lengths, plus my gun and I think Mike's long barrel target are exactly 8" as well.

I think we always like to see less common targets from the early days of S&W HEs, so add those 5" Target guns here.

 

[RKmesa]

Well all good questions ! There are no rework marks and serial number is in all the correct places. No stars of signs of anything being changed, finish is very consistent throughout. I suppose I could ask Don for a re-letter.

That 4" M&P Target is a great gun!!! Is the rear sight a two-screw sight or a one-screw sight? And are we sure of that the first SN is a 3, rather than a 5 or a 6?

 

[bruce5781]

This is the gun that started me down the S&W rabbit hole. Lyman ivory bead.
When I asked Roy for a ship date, he was adamant that I letter it. It was special ordered by a son of Devil Anse Hatfield, who was later killed from ambush, along with another brother, during a shoot-out over bootlegging territory.
The gun is totally devoid of finish, with no signs of buffing.
An interesting story, but since the SWCA forum has been moved, I can't link to the original thread.

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[bruce5781]

Here is one I picked up in a Woodlawn Boys auction a year or so ago but have not yet lettered.

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[bruce5781]

Here's one in nickle.

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[bruce5781]

An early 1902 in nickle.

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[glowe]

You were very lucky to run across those 4" Targets, let alone being able to purchase them all!!

 

[mikepriwer]

I'll start with the Model 1899 4" targets, one in blue and the other in nickel. They both letter, as shown below.

The next set of pictures are the 1899 8" targets, and they do measure as 8.0" . The blue one is all original, and was shipped to Dr Reginald Sayre, who was Captain of several US Olympic teams.

There is probably, but not for sure, one other all-original 8" 1899 that would have belonged to Charles Axtell, a well known shooter and US Olympic team member.

There is one other known not-original 8", serial 014, that was shipped to DB Wesson as a 6 1/2" gun. A second entry in the 0 book shows it as a 8" revolver in 1906, belonging to Charley Call.

The nickel 8", shown in the pictures with the Sayre's blue gun, is of unknown original barrel length. It's factory letter, and communications with Roy, show that no information is available as to it's shipping configuration. When I acquired it, years ago, it had a replacement barrel with a broken forcing cone. Jim Fisher kindly let me have an original 8" nickel 1899 barrel, which is what is on the gun now.

Regards, Mike Priwer

 

[tjpopkin]

I've had so many over the years...
One of my first purchases for a collection was one of the very rare 1950s 4" Regulation Police target guns. New in box from T. Horwel....

Loving 32s, I found a pair of Model 632s, in 327 Federal (3.5" ported), and a 22 Jet, Model 53 in both 4" and 8"..

Finally my 4" F-Comp in .357Mag.