Apparently the Air Force is pulling theirs, an NCO was shot dead by one in Wyoming. Apparently he had removed the holstered pistol and set it on a desk facing him and it discharged?
SIG P320 Discharges?
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McChemist
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That had occurred to me as well. No round in the chamber, no uncommanded discharge. This might be the short term solution for the Feds and Military, as FBI, DHS, MI St Police, and now USAF (an airman NCO was just killed by a Sig uncommanded discharge) are standing down the M17/18 & P320 pistols. If I was running Sig I would have their engineering and manufacturing staffs working 24/7 to adapt/modify the P365 trigger mechanisms to work in a M17/18 & P320 pistols. P365 is an excellent system and has a stellar record.Left to right, Sig, Glock, CZ.
And then their M7 which the 11Bravos don't like or want to use. But that discussion is left for another thread.
Maybe we should take up a collection for Extra Strength Excedrin for Sig employees and management. I think they will be needing it.
GrayGuns also adamantly insisted that the P320 could not fire when dropped on the rear of the slide early on when it was proven that the P320 wasn't drop safe, before Sig started its "voluntary upgrade" to fix a problem that was not a problem, but the recall would fix this nonexistant problem, if you voluntarily elected to fix the problem that did not exist.
Gray's assertions above assume that all the parts are within spec. Also, the striker block spring doesn't have to necessarily be missing or damaged; it only has to not be positioned correctly on its post with the legs of the torsion spring not bearing properly on the striker block. The sear override tests in the FBI document proved that the P320's striker block design was faulty and could not be depended on to prevent discharge if the striker slipped off the sear and the parts were out of spec.
What Sig says about the FBI tests, in the link above to their site dedicated to the issue, is that the results could not be duplicated when Sig and the FBI conducted subsequent tests under mutually agreed upon conditions.
FWIW
FWIW
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Who knows what the truth is? I just don't trust Sig based on their behavior all through this P320 saga. And Bruce Gray's credibility is suspect too. There are too many good alternatives to the P320 that don't have these suspicious ADs associated with them.
Even within Sig's products, the P365 hasn't had these AD issues. Interestingly, Sig elected to not scale down the P320 fire control system for the P365 that came later. It's a different design for the most part. Instead, the P365 uses a Glock-style, simple, more foolproof coil spring and plunger design striker block vs. the torsion spring and boomerang shaped striker block in the P320.
Edit: and I own a P320.
Even within Sig's products, the P365 hasn't had these AD issues. Interestingly, Sig elected to not scale down the P320 fire control system for the P365 that came later. It's a different design for the most part. Instead, the P365 uses a Glock-style, simple, more foolproof coil spring and plunger design striker block vs. the torsion spring and boomerang shaped striker block in the P320.
Edit: and I own a P320.
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Air Force Global Strike Command suspended the use of the M17/18.
That's nine Air Force bases.
Not good.
We'll see what happens after the investigation.
And it continues.
I'm reminded of the American Airlines crash that was caused by the engine tearing off and rotating over the wing, tearing it off and killing everyone aboard. That crash was directly caused by shortcuts and poorly-considered procedures that ended up killing 275 people. Sig has decided to insist that their procedures and products are the toast of the industry.
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My only Sigs are a P220 and a P226 I've had for decades. They're accurate and very safe. I realize they're not the latest design but latest design may not mean better design. Granted, I'm behind the times, but am I really missing out on anything?
No. Tools that work are all that matter at the end of the day. The hammer I bought 15 years ago will pound in a nail just as well as the new hammer my Dad bought because he lost another one. Which he found later, but that's not important..
Terry G
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My Wife bought me a P 320 and a P320 Compact for Christmas. Now this. I'm not telling her of course, range only until this matter is straightened out. If it ever is. I like my CZ's better anyway, and I'm carrying a S&W M&P .45 Compact. Still bums me out though. I always thought Sig was a top of the line manufacturer.
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FWIW, Sig should have updated their P250 DAO. All of mine have Armory Craft triggers with a 6 - 7 pound DAO trigger pull. During my 3 decades in the US Army, the requirement for the 1911A1 was an 8 pound trigger pull. Same with the Single Action trigger pull on the M9. I don't believe there has ever been an accidental discharge of a P250, and DoD would have had the interchangeability of FCUs that they required for the M17/M18 along with an 8 pound trigger pull. JMHO.
Milwaukee PD is the Agency that would not let Sig sweep this issue under the rug. One of their Officers had an issue 320 in his issue holster, in the trunk of his issue vehicle, parked in his garage. In the middle of the night, he heard a 'bang' and went to investigate. That pistol had fired in the holster, in the trunk, and with absolutely nothing jostling it. It was caught on his security camera. That was just one of what has been described to me as 'too many UD's to count' with Milwaukee PD.
There was a Youtube video of an Asian USPSA shooter at a match with his brand new, unfired X5 Legion. At the RO's command he 'made ready', chambered a round of factory ammo, and slipped the pistol into his Kydex competition holster. He raised his hands above his shoulders and before the timer 'beeped' the X5 went off in the holster. All on video. However, I can no longer find that video.
A good buddy of mine has a couple of 320s for USPSA. Graygunned out with amazing triggers, he shoots them like laser beams. But a few years ago I told him 'You'll be sorry when it goes off in your holster', and then it did, We were at a USPSA match, he had just made ready, and as the muzzle entered the holster mouth it went off. I was watching his gun like a hawk, because I'd been expecting it to do this for years. Nothing was even close to the trigger. But in this instance, when he sent it to Bruce Gray to check out, it was determined that he had inadvertently mixed a factory part into his Grayguns parts during a strip and clean. In my mind, this adds credence to the 'tolerance stacking' idea.
So in my opinion, if it IS tolerance stacking, it is still a serious problem because there are too many small parts in there. I sold my 320 (one of the early ones), mostly because I no longer trusted it completely. It was an extra pistol anyway.
So if anyone needs some mags with +5 floorplates or a tungsten infused X5 grip frame with magwell, hit me up.
There was a Youtube video of an Asian USPSA shooter at a match with his brand new, unfired X5 Legion. At the RO's command he 'made ready', chambered a round of factory ammo, and slipped the pistol into his Kydex competition holster. He raised his hands above his shoulders and before the timer 'beeped' the X5 went off in the holster. All on video. However, I can no longer find that video.
A good buddy of mine has a couple of 320s for USPSA. Graygunned out with amazing triggers, he shoots them like laser beams. But a few years ago I told him 'You'll be sorry when it goes off in your holster', and then it did, We were at a USPSA match, he had just made ready, and as the muzzle entered the holster mouth it went off. I was watching his gun like a hawk, because I'd been expecting it to do this for years. Nothing was even close to the trigger. But in this instance, when he sent it to Bruce Gray to check out, it was determined that he had inadvertently mixed a factory part into his Grayguns parts during a strip and clean. In my mind, this adds credence to the 'tolerance stacking' idea.
So in my opinion, if it IS tolerance stacking, it is still a serious problem because there are too many small parts in there. I sold my 320 (one of the early ones), mostly because I no longer trusted it completely. It was an extra pistol anyway.
So if anyone needs some mags with +5 floorplates or a tungsten infused X5 grip frame with magwell, hit me up.
Tom Garrett
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From a different perspective…
The most popular firearm in the world is the Sig Sauer P365.
Sig Sauer is currently producing the leading edge of all firearm technologies.
Ford Pinto's exploding gas tanks did not destroy Ford, who now is selling the most popular vehicle in the industry – the Ford F150.
General Motors' faulty ignition switch did not destroy GM, who now is producing one of the most popular vehicles in the USA – Chevrolet Silverado.
Samsung's exploding batteries did not destroy Samsung, now is selling THE most popular android cell phone in the industry.
The Chernobyl nuclear disaster did not destroy the use of nuclear power world-wide, in fact nuclear power will soon become THE most viable, cleanest, and safest renewable energy source.
The P320/MXX debacle will most likely NOT destroy Sig Sauer as they move to become the world's largest producer of firearm technology.
The most popular firearm in the world is the Sig Sauer P365.
Sig Sauer is currently producing the leading edge of all firearm technologies.
Ford Pinto's exploding gas tanks did not destroy Ford, who now is selling the most popular vehicle in the industry – the Ford F150.
General Motors' faulty ignition switch did not destroy GM, who now is producing one of the most popular vehicles in the USA – Chevrolet Silverado.
Samsung's exploding batteries did not destroy Samsung, now is selling THE most popular android cell phone in the industry.
The Chernobyl nuclear disaster did not destroy the use of nuclear power world-wide, in fact nuclear power will soon become THE most viable, cleanest, and safest renewable energy source.
The P320/MXX debacle will most likely NOT destroy Sig Sauer as they move to become the world's largest producer of firearm technology.
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SIG upgraded the P320 (M17 and M18) with a better disconnect mechanism and second notch in the sear, and firing pin block for safety. The M17 and M18 have a thumb safety, with a good detent, to block the trigger. The trigger is now much lighter for improved drop safety. The trigger now has a relatively long takeup to disengage the added safety measures. SIG has a website where you can review the updates in detail, and check the upgrade against your serial number.
Police use retention holsters which may intrude on the trigger guard. Atmorers must stay up to date on needed updates..
Police use retention holsters which may intrude on the trigger guard. Atmorers must stay up to date on needed updates..
OP
Not with other pistols.
Benton Quest
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I don't know. Do you feel you are missing out that your guns are not trying to kill you?
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No, I don't. Based on that premise, I guess I'm not missing out on anything after all.
I suppose it's also important to remember that newer/ modern doesn't mean "better" much of the time. However, it always equates to promoting/ marketing/ hustling a product. Nothing wrong with that if the product is a genuine improvement over what preceded it.
OP
Our South African Firearms trainers in Mogadishu had only a fine contempt for rifles, pistols, and shotguns with too much "...Gucci."
I think the distinction here is that the Company has not even remotely agreed that there might be a problem, and they've swept as many of the reports under the rug as possible.
Actually, everything they are doing wrong will end their reign. Their leadership is more akin to the now defunct leadership that destroyed Remington. Their hold on the market is breaking.
Too many QC issues. The 320 debacle will speed the process of self-implosion along exponentially if, really more of a when, they lose a lawsuit. The management is following the path of greed and self-destruction. It doesn't matter how good the product once was, it only matters how good it is today.
And all of the recent ADs within the past couple years have taken place AFTER all of those updates. The P320 always had the striker block safety from introduction. It is a weird design and has failed to stop the striker in tests for various reasons because it is a more finicky design than a simple coil spring and plunger like Glock and most other striker fired pistols use, including Sig's own P365.
LVSteve
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As Bill Engvall might say, "...and here's your sign."
Could you provide links or cite these tests for us?
Shrek Of The Arctic
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My son and I were talking before I left for work this evening. We both had a hearty laugh when we considered "What if..." In this case, "What if SIG's response to this whole scandal is to "upgrade" all the 320 triggers with....P250 triggers (And slide assemblies) ?" I could see the marketing now. "SECOND STRIKE CAPABILITY! UNPARALELED SIG EXCELLENCE! SMOOTHEST DAO TRIGGER MADE TODAY!" (And one of the few still made)
To my way of thinking, there is an absolute glut of fantastic plastic available to us today. Why even remotely take a chance with one that has the risk or even just the reputation for uncommanded detonation, especially when it is otherwise broadly unremarkable within it's category? Of course, that way of thinking just satisfies me. Not sure how I'd feel if I already had a collection of them. I did sell one to a fellow Officer. I'm wondering if I should offer him his money back for it? Not that I really think he'd ever have an AD. He never loads it or takes it out of the safe. But I take my integrity darn seriously, and I don't want to provide any potential fuel for malicious gossip. I probably need to make the offer. Nine pages here right now, and I'm the idiot that just might buy one. That figgers....lol
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Yes, the FBI test for the Michigan State Police is one. It is attached. There are several others shown on Youtube as well. Do a search and you should find them. All of those tests where the sear is pressed down with a punch from the rear of the slide are done specifically to check that the striker block is working as intended by eliminating trigger and trigger bar movement from the equation. In some, the gun passed; in others it failed. The point is, if the torsion spring isn't fully seated on its post, or one of the legs of the torsion spring isn't engaging the leg of the striker block correctly, it can AND HAS failed to stop the striker from impacting the primer when the sear is defeated. It is a pizz poor design and is more mechanically complex and less foolproof than the simple coil spring and plunger design used on Glocks and nearly every other striker fired pistol on the market.
Yes, I realize that Sig is claiming that the FBI test wasn't reproducible and all, but Sig cannot be relied upon to provide honest information given their obvious conflict of interest and their steadfast denials of design issues at every step of this P320 controversy.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. People can choose to believe whatever they wish. But I also believe where there's smoke, there's fire, and after all of the injuries and deaths from this pistol when people were not touching the trigger at the time, it's hard to believe that all of these are the result of negligence. Even if all of the AD incidents reported with this gun are caused by user error and careless handling, then why is this only happening with the P320? Why isn't it also happening with Sig's own P365? If a gun is so easily induced to AD and other competing guns don't seem to have that same problem, then isn't it fair to question why, and couldn't this be indicative that perhaps it's a poor design? I think these are fair questions to ask.
Here is one demonstration on YouTube:
There are several others if you're interested in searching for them. Believe what you will.
And yes, I realize that in normal use, you will never have an object protrude into the back of the slide and press down on the sear... however, that isn't the point. The purpose of this test is to eliminate trigger and trigger bar movement so that the striker block safety should remain in "safe" position. If for some reason the striker foot slips off the sear, the striker block safety should arrest the striker from hitting a primer, and these tests are a way of checking for proper function of the striker block.
There are several others if you're interested in searching for them. Believe what you will.
And yes, I realize that in normal use, you will never have an object protrude into the back of the slide and press down on the sear... however, that isn't the point. The purpose of this test is to eliminate trigger and trigger bar movement so that the striker block safety should remain in "safe" position. If for some reason the striker foot slips off the sear, the striker block safety should arrest the striker from hitting a primer, and these tests are a way of checking for proper function of the striker block.
Thanks, Beauregard.
The FBI test is the only one by an "official expert" (?) lab I am aware of as well. We discussed it earlier in this thread, and it is followed, in post #118, by a YouTube guy who could not replicate the results, then, later in the thread, other YouTube guys, as per your post above, who could.
Lotta YouTube guys out there...
(Frankly, I have trouble following the inner workings of the P320 lockwork or trigger group or whatever the innards that control firing are called, but, yes, jamming a punch in there to induce failure does seem an improper testing method to me. See Sig's comments below.)
Here is a 7/24/25 Sig release which includes an FBI email* to Sig discussing the subsequent FBI testing which was unable to repeat the failures.
https://soldiersystems.net/wp-conte...Statement-to-FL-LE.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com
(I will note here that the site above appears credible, when I looked into it, but I do wonder why I cannot find Sig's 7/24 statement on their own site...)
The Sig statement also states that the Michigan State Police are now back to issuing the M18 to troopers.
This 7/17/25 article reviews the FBI initial testing, and then the subsequent FBI and Sig testing under mutually agreeable conditions: https://www.twz.com/land/army-makin...0-derived-pistols-after-concerning-fbi-report
In it, Sig comments are quoted on why it thinks the initial FBI test was not proper:
"Specifically, Sig explained that forcing the sear downward with a punch was moving the trigger bar forward and, as a result, the trigger to the rear since the sear is in constant contact with the trigger bar," he continued. "Sig expressed that this was not a proper representation of the striker slipping off of the sear's primary notch from a parallel/grip-down drop. Sig also noted that the FBI's concern of the striker safety spring movement on the striker assembly post after getting hit with a hammer was unwarranted due to the viewing window that was cut into the slide that sacrificed the sidewall support of the striker safety spring."
"After the initial report was submitted, Sig Sauer and its engineers worked in cooperation with the FBI and Michigan State Police to design a fixture that all agreed would create a more controlled testing protocol for striker/sear slippage," St. John added. "Using that fixture, the FBI forced the sear off of the primary notch 565 times with 19EA different striker assemblies with zero indents on the primer (no fires)."
FWIW. (Not sure what that "19EA" means, but it was in the document I quoted so I left it there.)
* The FBI email linked in the article is hard to read. Here is a clean text version as reproduced by ChatGPT:
The FBI test is the only one by an "official expert" (?) lab I am aware of as well. We discussed it earlier in this thread, and it is followed, in post #118, by a YouTube guy who could not replicate the results, then, later in the thread, other YouTube guys, as per your post above, who could.
Lotta YouTube guys out there...
(Frankly, I have trouble following the inner workings of the P320 lockwork or trigger group or whatever the innards that control firing are called, but, yes, jamming a punch in there to induce failure does seem an improper testing method to me. See Sig's comments below.)
Here is a 7/24/25 Sig release which includes an FBI email* to Sig discussing the subsequent FBI testing which was unable to repeat the failures.
https://soldiersystems.net/wp-conte...Statement-to-FL-LE.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com
(I will note here that the site above appears credible, when I looked into it, but I do wonder why I cannot find Sig's 7/24 statement on their own site...)
The Sig statement also states that the Michigan State Police are now back to issuing the M18 to troopers.
This 7/17/25 article reviews the FBI initial testing, and then the subsequent FBI and Sig testing under mutually agreeable conditions: https://www.twz.com/land/army-makin...0-derived-pistols-after-concerning-fbi-report
In it, Sig comments are quoted on why it thinks the initial FBI test was not proper:
"Specifically, Sig explained that forcing the sear downward with a punch was moving the trigger bar forward and, as a result, the trigger to the rear since the sear is in constant contact with the trigger bar," he continued. "Sig expressed that this was not a proper representation of the striker slipping off of the sear's primary notch from a parallel/grip-down drop. Sig also noted that the FBI's concern of the striker safety spring movement on the striker assembly post after getting hit with a hammer was unwarranted due to the viewing window that was cut into the slide that sacrificed the sidewall support of the striker safety spring."
"After the initial report was submitted, Sig Sauer and its engineers worked in cooperation with the FBI and Michigan State Police to design a fixture that all agreed would create a more controlled testing protocol for striker/sear slippage," St. John added. "Using that fixture, the FBI forced the sear off of the primary notch 565 times with 19EA different striker assemblies with zero indents on the primer (no fires)."
FWIW. (Not sure what that "19EA" means, but it was in the document I quoted so I left it there.)
* The FBI email linked in the article is hard to read. Here is a clean text version as reproduced by ChatGPT:
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To me, the more telling response is the lawsuits by Sig against Washington State to lift their law-enforcement ban on 320s and muzzle sheriffs from speaking about it, and their reflexive blaming of the holsters. Like, guys, Safariland and other quality holster manufacturers aren't new either, and I guarantee that they sized their own products appropriately for the pistol, because they too have institutional and professional customers they deal with. And it ain't WML-Glocks or M&Ps or Stacattos randomly firing from the holster.
That and the response of the Sig community on places like Sigtalk and Reddit. Mods working (probably literal) overtime to ban people, quash reports and delete posts, etc. Hasbara to the maximum extent possible, but it really just erodes any sort of community support they might have had.
I don't know if this destroys the company, but at a minimum, they need to pull a Taurus and do a full tear down, redesign and relaunch of their products. (FWIW Taurus is actually pretty pleasantly great these days)
That and the response of the Sig community on places like Sigtalk and Reddit. Mods working (probably literal) overtime to ban people, quash reports and delete posts, etc. Hasbara to the maximum extent possible, but it really just erodes any sort of community support they might have had.
I don't know if this destroys the company, but at a minimum, they need to pull a Taurus and do a full tear down, redesign and relaunch of their products. (FWIW Taurus is actually pretty pleasantly great these days)
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