ECM rifling and my leaded up barrel...has ECM been the problem all along?!

peppercorn

peppercorn

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I have had alot of lead fouling in my 2009 IL, MIM model 60 following a wadcutter diet.
The same ammo runs through my model 686-3 (1983), model 10-5,28-2 and19-3 without anything more than I might expect.

The model 60 on the other hand has significant amounts of lead in the first inch or so of the barrel. A brass brush and soaking over night with solvent doesn't begin to touch it whereas the older guns clean right up.

Has anyone else had this occur with ECM rifled guns and, if so, what has been your solution, other than switching to jacketed bullets?
 
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Maybe I need to reword my inquiry.

Does anyone have excessive leading issues with a 1995, the year S&W started using the ECM rifling process, or later manufacture gun.
This of course would be a relative comparison to pre-1995 manufacture date.
 
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Photoman44 said:
I've heard some complaints about the new style rifling regarding accuracy and excessive leading but I haven't experience either personally.
Click to expand...

Thanks Photo, do you shoot lead in a '95 or later gun?

As far as accuracy goes all of my modern guns shoot laser straight so I have no complaints there.
 
I had major leading issues with my 620 the one time I shot some Blazer 158 gn LRN in it. Took about 10-12 hours to get the barrel clean and I won't repeat that mistake.

Now, what I have read is the you can shoot cast bullets in the ECM barrels BUT lubrication is CRITICAL. Use the wrong lube or an unlubricated bullet and the leading will be beyond belief. Since I don't reload at this point I cannot recomend any particular lube, all I can recomend is shooting jacketed bullets.

As for the accuracy produced with the ECM barrels, I can't complain at all. Personally, I believe that my 620 is capable of shooting to 1/2 inch at 50 yards, with it's tensioned barrel it's a 4 inch rifle when I'm shooting well. I also have an ECM barrel in my 6 1/2 inch 610 and normally group it between 2 1/2 and 3 inches at 35 yards from a rest using a reflex sight. One of these days I'll mount my scope on the 610 just to see what it can do, personally I suspect it'll probably shoot between 1 1/2 and 2 inches at 50 yards. IMO the ECM barrels are at a minimum just as accurate as the older broached barrels and it's possible they may be more accurate. One positive for the ECM process is that it seems to be much more consistent from barrel to barrel than the older method of rifling.
 
Lead

I reload with 'moly' coated bullits, I don't have the problem you do.
I don't know if the moly is the answer or if I just don't have the problem.
Good luck
tb
 
scooter,
Thanks for the detailed response.

I didn't even know about this type of rifling until recently. I just assumed I had bad luck with cast bullets in my model 60, which still has excessive, unsuccesfully removed lead in the barrel as I type.
 
Ive got four ecm barrel guns and ive pirated a technique from someone on this forum (cant remember who gets the credit for making this up).
I shoot almost exclusively lead and even with a decent lube grove filled leading happens, always in the last inch or so of barrel.

The FIX: Cut a furniture pin or some dowel down to the barrel size and then cover the dowel with a latex glove finger or similar piece of latex. Place the newly made plug into the forcing cone very firmly and place a small rag under the plug to catch spills, ( barrel should be completely verticle). next fill the barrel with a solution of half white vinegar and hydrogen proxide, ( check for leaks and possibly adjust your plug). Refill barrel as necessary and wait a half hour, then dump out all your lead. After this make sure to lube your barrel before storing or shooting and make sure your catch rag didnt let any spill into your frame.

THis is perfectly safe for all revolvers and cleans it better than anything else.
 
peppercorn said:
Thanks Photo, do you shoot lead in a '95 or later gun?

As far as accuracy goes all of my modern guns shoot laser straight so I have no complaints there.
Click to expand...

Not much. I had a supply of Federal 158gr SWC's that I shot through some newer 642's and 442's. I reload plated bullets for indoor range shooting so don't have a lot of experience with pure lead bullets.
 
I shoot only lead in mdl. 21/22-4/24-8(all EDM rifled). I use my air cooled wheel weights lubed with a homemade mix of 60% canning wax/40% commode seal. I do not have any leading problems. 45acp load=5 gr #231/230 gr\44 spl=7'5 gr unique/250 gr.
Usual cleanup is a few swipes with a nylon or copper brush followed by a swab.
Maybe the bullets you're using are very soft or undersized for your barrel.
 
I have several of the newer Smith revolvers including a 625-8, a Model 520, a 642, and a 629 Performance Center Light Hunter. They ALL give exemplary accuracy with my home cast bullets (lubed with White Label Carnauba Red). This is with full house loads, also.

Bullets must be sized to the cylinder throats, must be of the proper hardness, and must be loaded correctly.

FWIW
Dale53
 
I fire lap my guns with Wheeling fire lap kit. I shoot 99.9% cast bullets, some are my own made with love and many are just mass produced lead.

Try the fire lapping to prevent lead buildup, if you get lead the easiest way I found to get lead out is the Outers Foul out system.
 
Caution is advised with the peroxide and vinegar...

dan-g said:
Ive got four ecm barrel guns and ive pirated a technique from someone on this forum (cant remember who gets the credit for making this up).
I shoot almost exclusively lead and even with a decent lube grove filled leading happens, always in the last inch or so of barrel.

The FIX: Cut a furniture pin or some dowel down to the barrel size and then cover the dowel with a latex glove finger or similar piece of latex. Place the newly made plug into the forcing cone very firmly and place a small rag under the plug to catch spills, ( barrel should be completely verticle). next fill the barrel with a solution of half white vinegar and hydrogen proxide, ( check for leaks and possibly adjust your plug). Refill barrel as necessary and wait a half hour, then dump out all your lead. After this make sure to lube your barrel before storing or shooting and make sure your catch rag didnt let any spill into your frame.

THis is perfectly safe for all revolvers and cleans it better than anything else.
Click to expand...

This has been discussed here before:
"...1 part hydrogen peroxide and 1 part vinegar is called ‘The Dip’ and used to clean suppressors. The dip will destroy aluminum.

The dip really should be avoided as it produces lead acetate(toxic). This stuff is absorbed through the skin and is a huge health risk..."

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-smithing/169602-hydrogen-peroxide-remove-lead.html

Chore Boy or bronze wool wrapped around an old bore brush is a highly effective way to remove lead from a barrel. As far as making a barrel less prone to lead, I have used the felt pellets sized to the bore available from Brownells with some Bore Shine, or Mother's Mag polish, and lapped the barrels a bit. Seems to make them far less likely to foul after that.

On the same track, if you have any copper fouling in the barrel and then run lead through it, it will really foul up badly. If I shoot any jacketed bullets in a gun that will see lead, I use the same pellets and bore cleaner to make sure all the copper is out. I have a Foul-Out as well, but find the pellets and bore cleaner to be faster and just as effective.

I wouldn't be without these anymore now that I've used them:
WEAPONS CARE SYSTEM PELLETS - Brownells
 
My 696 had horrendous leading with lead bullets and any lube I could think of. I finally switched to copper plated lead bullets made by X-Treme Bullets. No leading and shoots as straight as a laser.
 
Cast bullet performance depends on sizing them correctly to your gun but they must be cast of an appropriate alloy for your intended loads. Leading in forcing cone and beginning of barrel are indications of blow by. This is caused by bullets being undersized - or they are to hard for your load and can't slug up to fit chamber dia. You need a softer alloy or more pressure to help them bump up. This should help with your leading issues
 
Hey 2hawk, The dip is a health risk. However, I wear latex gloves during the process and once it has removed the lead from the barrel I imidiatly throw away the liquid. Calling it a "huge health risk" is an overstatement. If your a lead reloaded like myself lead is used for casting and reloading and with proper safeguards will not raise your lead levels. The dip can be made inert by adding sulfuric acid which will reform the lead into a solid for filtration and safe disposal.

THe DIP works in 10-30 minutes and I never have changed a batch so the gentleman in your post who you quote is a bit misinformed. Feel free to look up Lead Acetate and then quote me a source.


CWH44300; I have that problem with my cast wheel weights (thier half the price of lead). My bullets drop about 22bhn and shooting them out of my snub 38's produces leading. I can fire those same bullets out of my 357 mag with no leading. So my experience is right in line with what your saying.
 
dan-g, no issue with your methods, just your recommendation without any warnings of possible risks. There was a time I looked into de-leading suppressors that way, and decided that there were safer methods available. Lead acetate is many times more toxic than lead, and failing to include that information is irresponsible.
 
It appears that the ECM rifling, which was started in 1995, may increase leading.
I don't reload as of yet but hope to very soon, as witnessed in another thread over in reloading.
For now I think I will get some of the 'plugs' 2hawk recommended and polish the barrel once I get the lead removed.

roadgunner,
Hotlapping looks interesting and maybe along the lines of polishing the bore but with obvious differences.

pinkymingeo and 2hawk,
It looks like you both have luck with similar processes when removing lead. I will start with Chore Boy as it is softer and move to the frontier product if needed.

Thanks for the input everyone.
 
Hello, I don't know if the ECM barrels lead easier than the older style but removing the lead is quite simple without resorting to various witches brews. Take a look at the following post and in particular the third post by member rct269. I have followed his advice and it works great, seems to even work better than my Lewis Lead Removal tool although the Lewis tool works better on the forcing cone. http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/191269-lead-barrel.html
 
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