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Elmer Keith
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keith44spl
Member
Like Tom K,
I too shot a lot of IHMSA matches in the early '80s.
Was state revolver champ two years running with an
8 3/8" model 29 using a hard cast linotype Lyman 429421.
From the 'kinda reclined' creedmoor position, I fired 10 rounds
that I could cover with one hand on the 150m turkey.
Ten rounds of the same load at the two hundred meter ram,
that I could easily cover with both hands.
By pulling the front sight out of the rear notch,
I've walked rounds over dry dusty ground on to targets
at the five to six hundred yards distance. Mostly old five gallon buckets filled with water.
Of course, one has to read the azimuth and allow for the rotation....
I would'nt shoot at a game animal at those extended ranges....
With the exception that it was wounded and about to be lost.
.
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Walter Rego
Member
I think someone like Keith who was an expert marksman on the target range as well as in the field, and who grew up in the western outdoors and had extensive hunting experience was an excellent judge of range. If he said it was 600 yards I'll bet a laser rangefinder (should such a thing have existed then) would have said between 575 and 625. I believe him.
I think it's interesting that we don't seem to have much trouble believing that Jerry Miculec could hit a balloon at 1000 yards with a revolver, but doubt that Elmer Keith couldn't hit a large deer at 600 yards. One reason, I suppose is that we have photographic evidence in one case, and don't in the other. I fall into the camp of believing that EK made the shot. FWIW, which ain't much!!
Best Regards, Les
Best Regards, Les
OP
Coaltminer
Member
No disrespect, I couldn't do it, you couldn't do it. But why not track it? I've never called anyone's post foolish
I say again, EMK had a broken leg or foot................
Many people on here just don't quite understand. Keith grew up on a ranch...guiding, eating game.. Probably most all year(no freezers or food stamps back then like now). Guiding for a little money per day...Getting the game was necessary. Tips were the part you worked for. I did. Guided for almost 35 yrs. Tips were usually where you made your money. And back then as I said..getting the game was how you ate. We ate from Sept 1st till the end of January on the game we got..the musrats and other things we trapped and dad was a Chesapeake bay waterman(me too)...we lived off the bounty of the land and water....and I can tell you it ain't easy., The average person these days have never lived that way. so they can afford to be negative about what Keith may have done. I probably wouldn't have taken the shot but I am not and have never been the handgun shot that Keith was. But I have been in the field guiding people on waterfowl doves and deer and other game that should not have been out there shooting at critters even in range. I have actually had to load some peoples firearms for them
Texas Star
US Veteran
When, and why do you think so?
He was horribly burned in a fire as a child and worked very hard to regain use of his hands. I mean, he was a real mess. The hands were curved inward like claws and it took a lot of effort and courage to learn to get those contracted muscles working again. If Elmer had any particular quality, it was determination!
But he managed and became one of the fastest and most accurate handgun shooters ever. I am not sure but what his recovery was a miracle. It was on par with Petra Nemcova's recovery from her agonizing ordeal after being caught in that Thai tsunami that killed her fiance.
Petra had one arm broken in several places, a pelvis also with multiple fractures, and other severe injuries. She was told to give up hope of ever walking again. But she did and even appeared on, Dancing with the Stars, although still not having regained her full range of motion. She did return to modelling and eventually founded the Happy Hearts Foundation to give aid to orphaned children who survive natural disasters.
Elmer didn't have an ABC special with Barbara Walters interviewing him like Petra did, but I think his achievement was as impressive. Of Petra, her chief doctor said, "We (medical team) did not heal this woman. God did."
The human spirit is sometimes just remarkable. When I think of these two, or read about USAF Capt. Scott O'Grady's Bosnian ordeal, evading savage Serbian pursuers and surviving for a week while eating grass, leaves, and ants, I feel humble and impressed.(Now, O'Grady REALLY was sort of fasting)
Petra Nemcova grew up in then-Communist Czechoslovakia and was somewhat inured to hardship. She told an interviewer that she could get fruit and other luxuries only at Christmas. This may have hardened her resolve and made her mind tough before she escaped to the West.
Elmer may well have broken a leg or foot in his life. He led a rugged existence,with considerable potential for serious accidents. I think he was dragged by a horse, and had to kill it with his revolver.
But if he had a bad leg at the time of that 600 yard shot, I don't recall it. If he'd had a bum leg, how could he have been out guiding that guy who wounded the deer?
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Alpo
Member
I don't recall WHEN it happened, so can't say whether or not it was during the time of the 600 yard shot, but in Hell, I Was There he tells of dislocating his hip and not knowing about it for several months. He knew his hip hurt, but not why.
I said it is foolish because you've taken a well known tale, a legend perhaps, you skim off one percent of the story and toss it out and you say "Damned poor sportsmanship"
I've called posts foolish in the past, I'll likely do it again. If there were less of them, there'd be less reason to point that out. Would it better if I had commented "Damned poor post." ?
5-Shot
Member
Quote 1:
Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
I say again, EMK had a broken leg or foot................
Quote 2:
When, and why do you think so?
I believe the bad leg was in one of his other stories.
Ed
Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
I say again, EMK had a broken leg or foot................
Quote 2:
When, and why do you think so?
I believe the bad leg was in one of his other stories.
Ed
When, and why do you think so?
Elmer may well have broken a leg or foot in his life. He led a rugged existence,with considerable potential for serious accidents. I think he was dragged by a horse, and had to kill it with his revolver.
But if he had a bad leg at the time of that 600 yard shot, I don't recall it. If he'd had a bum leg, how could he have been out guiding that guy who wounded the deer?
I believe the OP has confused that with the doe Elmer shot while fishing. He was hobbled up enough that he could not hunt. This incident is also mentioned in Hell I was There.
The ranch he grew up on and most he owned were a far cry from today's idea of a ranch. Think tough, close to primitive conditions with no electricity, at best an icebox, no indoor plumbing, water from a creek, and no stove that would hold a fire for more than 2 hours without being fed more wood.
The best difference between Jack and Elmer I have read; is that Jack was accustomed to guided hunts while Elmer was accustomed to guiding hunts.
YEP.........IN ELMER'S OWN WORDS......................
Paul Kriley and I hunted up Clear Creek on the right side where it is partly open bunch grass meadows and partly patches of timber. We hunted all day, and although we saw several does at 80-90 yards, one at 60, that I could have killed. We passed them up, as I wanted a buck. Toward evening we topped out on a ridge. There was a swale between us and another small ridge on the side of the mountain slope about 300-400 yards away. Beyond that, out on the open sidehill, no doubt on account of the cougar, were about 20 mule deer, feeding. Two big bucks were in the band, and some lesser ones, the rest were does and long fawns. As it was getting late and the last day of the season, I wanted one of those bucks for meat. Being a half-mile away, I told Paul, “Take the .300 Magnum and duck back through this swale to that next ridge and that should put you within about 500 yards of them. I’ll stay here (the deer had seen us), let them watch me for a decoy.” Paul said, “You take the rifle.”
“I said, how is it sighted?”
He said, “one inch high at a hundred yards.” I told him to go ahead because I wouldn’t know where to hold it. I always sighted a .300 Magnum 3 inches high at a hundred and I wouldn’t know where to hold it at 500.
I said, “You go ahead and kill the biggest buck in the bunch for me.” Paul took off, went across the swale and climbed the ridge, laid down and crawled up to the top. He shot. The lower of the two bucks, which he later said was the biggest one, dropped and rolled down the mountain. I then took off across the swale to join him. Just before I climbed up the ridge to where he was lying, he started shooting again.
When I came up on top, the band of deer was pretty well long gone. They’d gone out to the next ridge top, turned up it slightly and went over. But the old buck was up following their trail, one front leg a-swinging. Paul had hit it. I asked Paul, “Is there any harm in me getting into this show?” He said, “No, go ahead.”
I had to lay down prone, because if I crawled over the hill to assume my old backside positioning, then the blast of his gun would be right in my ear. Shooting prone with a .44 Magnum is something I don’t like at all. The concussion is terrific. It will just about bust your ear drums every time. At any rate Paul shot and missed. I held all of the front sight up, or practically all of it, and perched the running deer on top of the front sight and squeezed one off. Paul said, “I saw it through my scope. It hit in the mud and snow right below him.” There was possibly six inches of wet snow, with muddy ground underneath. I told him “I won’t be low the next shot.” Paul shot again and missed with his .300 Magnum. The next time I held all of the front sight up and a bit of the ramp, just perched the deer on top. After the shot the gun came down out of recoil and the bullet had evidently landed. The buck made a high buck-jump, swapped ends, and came back toward us, shaking his head. I told Paul I must have hit a horn. I asked him to let the buck come back until he was right on us if he would, let him come as close as he would and I’d jump up and kill him. When he came back to where Paul had first rolled him, out about 500 yards, Paul said, “I could hit him now, I think.”
“Well,” I said, “I don’t like to see a deer run on three legs. Go ahead.” He shot again and missed. The buck swapped ends and turned around and went back right over the same trail. Paul said, “I’m out of ammunition. Empty.” I told him to reload, duck back out of sight, go on around the hill and head the old buck off, and I’d chase him on around. Paul took off on a run to go around this bunch-grass hill and get up above the buck and on top. He was young, husky, and could run like a deer himself. I got on the old buck again with all of the front sight and a trifle of the ramp up. Just as I was going to squeeze it off when he got to the ridge, he turned up it just as the band of deer had done. So I moved the sight picture in front of him and shot. After an interval he went down and out of sight. I didn’t think anything of it, thought he had just tipped over the ridge. It took me about half an hour to get across. When I got over there to the ridge, I saw where he’d rolled down the hill about fifty yards, bleeding badly, and then he’d gotten up and walked from the tracks to the ridge in front of us. There were a few pine trees down below, so I cut across to intercept his tracks. I could see he was bleeding out both sides.
Just before I got to the top of the ridge, I heard a shot up above me and then another shot, and I yelled and asked if it was Paul. He answered. I asked, “Did you get him?” He said, “Yes, he’s down there by that big pine tree below you. Climb a little higher and you can see him.” Paul came down and we went down to the buck. Paul said the buck was walking along all humped up very slowly. He held back of the shoulders as he was quartering away. The first shot went between his forelegs and threw up snow. Then he said the buck turned a little more away from him and he held higher and dropped him. Finally we parted the hair in the right flank and found where the 180-grain needle-pointed Remington spitzer had gone in. Later I determined it blew up and lodged in the left shoulder. At any rate I looked his horns over, trying to see where I’d hit a horn. No sign of it. Finally I found a bullet hole back of the right jaw and it came out of the top of his nose. That was the shot I’d hit him with out at 600 yards. Then Paul said, “Who shot him through the lungs broadside? I didn’t, never had that kind of shot at all.” There was an entrance hole fairly high on the right side of the rib cage just under the spine and an exit just about three or four inches lower on the other side. The deer had been approximately the same elevation as I was when I fired that last shot at him. We dressed him, drug him down the trail on Clear Creek, hung him up, and went on down to the ranch. The next day a man named Posy and I came back with a pack horse, loaded him and took him in. I took a few pictures of him hanging in the woodshed along with the Smith & Wesson .44 Mag.
I took him home and hung him up in the garage. About ten days later my son Ted came home from college and I told him, “Ted, go out and skin that big buck and get us some chops. They should be well-ripened and about right for dinner tonight.” After awhile Ted came in and he laid the part jacket of a Remington bullet on the table beside me and he said, “Dad, I found this right beside the exit hole on the left side of that buck’s ribs.” Then I knew that I had hit him at that long range two out of four times. I believe I missed the first shot, we didn’t see it at all, and it was on the second that Paul said he saw snow and mud fly up at his heels. I wrote it up and I’ve been called a liar ever since, but Paul Kriley is still alive and able to vouch for the facts.
Elmer Keith
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I obviously have my deer stories mixed up. I am wrong about EMKs leg. Thanx for the story in his own words. The facts make more sense with the back ground info. It is like EMK saying that he killed several rabbits with one shot. It was a pregnant female............
Wyatt Burp
Member
For people like us who like sixguns and classic practical holsters, I think 95% of “Sixguns By Keith” is pretty timeless and as useful today as when written. Reloading components, semi auto reliability, bullet styles, powder types, and “selecting a sixgun” being exceptions since technology is so radically different now.
gman51
Member
Yep it sells books! That's as far as I take these stories. Not saying they aren't true but I seriously doubt it happened. Personally I doubt I could see a deer at 600 yards or a balloon at 1000 yards let alone hit it with a handgun free handed. IMO It would be pure luck if they hit it. Don't even expect me to believe someone could hit a 1' target a half mile away while holding a handgun upside down. I was born at night but not last night.
Magicians can pull off some unbelievable things with you watching right in front of them. We all know they didn't actually do it but we just don't know how they got it to look like they did.
Like they say in the movies....take 125 yard pistol shot scene.
Magicians can pull off some unbelievable things with you watching right in front of them. We all know they didn't actually do it but we just don't know how they got it to look like they did.
Like they say in the movies....take 125 yard pistol shot scene.
Watchdog
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I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that the ways of "selecting a sixgun" are no longer applicable?
Sixguns (revolvers) are still sixguns, even though design elements may have changed. The criteria for selecting one remains up to the individual, but are basically still the same as they were 65 years ago. Or 100 years ago.
And bullet styles? I don't believe the deadly Keith lead SWC will ever be considered passé.
If I were still loading my own ammo, I've no doubt I'd still be using Unique and 2400.
On another note (and probably my final one on this subject), in my mind's eye I see Keith in his coffin, shaking with laughter over the fact that people are still nitpicking his supposed 600-yard shot 60-plus years after the fact.
joeintexas
US Veteran
When all was said and done I don't think it mattered one way or the other to the indian.
I enjoyed reading EK's writings, truth, fiction or a bit of a stretch, I still enjoyed them.
Wyatt Burp
Member
I mean there are more sixguns of similar types from different companies available now. S&W, Colt (expensive but still available used), Taurus, Rossi, Ruger all have similar size .357s, for example, and very available. In the early 50s there was the pre 27, heavier, and according to Skelton very hard to find. The Model 19, Colt .357, Trooper, Python come along but I bet not in every gun shop, and sometimes too expensive if in real demand. What Keith writes about would apply to shooters today with the guns I mentioned, if with adjustable sights like Keith considered mandatory.
And yes, most my lead bullets (not cast by me) are of Keith design or close. But there just has to be more options now to choose from by more makers than back then. And Progressive presses are in common use now.
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