Engage or not?

[rwsmith]

Except in Biloxi.......

That scenario has played out twice recently at Waffle House restaurants in South Carolina. Turned out bad for the perps.

Robber shot, killed in Spartanburg Waffle House, second suspect - WMBFNews.com, Myrtle Beach/Florence SC, Weather

Would-be Waffle House robber dies after having been shot by customer - Post and Courier

On the other hand, a female working at a local Walmart was stabbed to death in front of a large crowd at the cash registers. My CWP instructor is a Deputy Sheriff, and said seven of the witnesses interviewed were CWP holders with weapons, and did nothing.

Shopping Continues After Woman Is Killed In Walmart | WYFF Home - WYFF Home

In SC, you are legally protected if you intervene, but have no obligation to.

It's good to live in SC. But in Biloxi MS a waitress told a man he couldn't smoke and he shot and killed her.

 

[caleb4387]

A lotvdepends on state. In florida o would have no problem engaging but hete in ohio? No way. We arent protected and they are rough on 3rd party defense

 

[Kronos]

This is going to sound cruel but this is how I see it:

Unless something happens right in front of me I ain't hanging around,I pay attention to ways to make a quick and timely exit and if the S hits the fan that's what I'll be doing.

If something happens in front of me I'll just stay back and hope they are pleased with whatever they take and split real quick-ONLY if they shoot,stab,try to kill the clerk will I respond with gunfire.

Why? blame our society and it's habit of loving laws and rules and making simple things as difficult as possible,I know if I'm not directly threatened then I have pretty much zero reason to intervene as most laws I've looked at make it clear my gun is for SELFdefense so I take that to mean it's to use for myself and a very select few others.

Once they pop the clerk I have a reasonable argument that I was in fear for my life as the guy was killing/trying to kill people in front of me so they are crazy and dangerous.

That's the ugly truth in my opinion.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

I'm not sure of the best course of action in the following scenario.

I'm in a store and someone armed with a firearm comes in to rob it.
My first thought is, as long as it doesn't appear he is going to hurt anyone, just let him go. Don't start a gunfight where there is none.
On the other hand, he could hurt someone there at any moment, also he could hurt someone at his next robbery if not stopped.
Opinions? Especially from any LEO's.
Thanks

These two statements are mutually exclusive. If he's not a threat tell the beggar to leave. If he is a threat he's fair game.

Given the opportunity it is better to for the gunfight to go loud at your discretion rather than for it to go loud at the time of the bad guy's choosing. The specifics of the situation can vary wildly, so it's not possible to offer a generally definitive answer. Though some things, like moving the victims to a secondary crime scene, are always a "GO" signal.

 

[K-framer]

You do NOT have the obligations of an LEO.....NOR do you have the AUTHORITY of one. Your authorization to use your carry weapon extends ONLY to situations in which YOU are DIRECTLY threatened with death or serious harm - NOT others, except in the case of your family (or certain others) in certain situations (such as defending the interior spaces of your home).

Being a bystander in a store does NOT qualify - in ANY jurisdiction in this country - unless the perp acts in threat to you, directly. If he/she were to make overt threats with a deadly weapon to you, then light him up. If not, you would seriously risk prosecution.

Being a CC license holder does NOT make you an LEO (or any facsimile thereof) - PERIOD.

(There was just recently a case, exactly like this hypothetical scenario, in the news. Bystander in a store chases perp from the store, shoots at him as he is running away, chases him to his car, then shoots at the car as the guy is driving away. The bystander is in jail, charged with a number of serious crimes.)

I never understand the confusion on this some people seem to display. It's not that hard.

 

[Muss Muggins]

You do NOT have the obligations of an LEO.....NOR do you have the AUTHORITY of one. Your authorization to use your carry weapon extends ONLY to situations in which YOU are DIRECTLY threatened with death or serious harm - NOT others, except in the case of your family (or certain others) in certain situations (such as defending the interior spaces of your home).

Being a bystander in a store does NOT qualify - in ANY jurisdiction in this country - unless the perp acts in threat to you, directly. If he/she were to make overt threats with a deadly weapon to you, then light him up. If not, you would seriously risk prosecution.

Being a CC license holder does NOT make you an LEO (or any facsimile thereof) - PERIOD.

I never understand the confusion on this some people seem to display. It's not that hard.

Well, if you read the excerpts of South Carolina and Illinois self defense law posted here, you'll see that CCW holders are authorized to protect third parties. Some states do not authorize that, but the trend in the nation is towards allowing defense of others. Interestingly enough, several appellate cases have ruled that even LEO's have no absolute duty to protect others from death or serious bodily injury. When they choose to do so, however, they have a little more leeway than the average citizen. Thankfully, they choose to do so regularly.

As I posted earlier, just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. That is for each to decide in their own manner.

 

[Hotshot9]

Wow... Thats a lot to think about. Shoot or not to shoot. Jail or no Jail. Save a life or not to save a life. I guess you'll know the answer to these questions when your in that situation. And I hope you are never in one as mentioned.

 

[OldeTSgt]

As long as you or another are not in immediate danger I would suggest you take no action. Even as law enforcement officers, engaging in a shoot out is a traumatic experience. We practice constantly for these situations and even then it seems like it is not enough. Try to get a good description of the perpetrators and what ever else may be helpful for the police.

You are assuming that those of us that conceal carry do not have the same training as an LEO - I know a bunch of people that do in my circle of friends. Including LEO and military training. We have no obligation to intervene and that is fine but someone pointing a gun at some one is an inherent danger to me - in the blink of an eye.

In my circle of friends there are multiple CCW holders - including an ex Deputy Station Chief in the CIA, retired LEO's and current LEO's

 

[bigwheelzip]

Have a question that has been bothering me about an incident like this .. being at a store that is being robbed ..

Several have said if a CC holder shoots someone that they will go to jail .. but then a blogger referenced a couple of shootings by CC holders and neither article says anything about the conceal carry holder being arrested and going to jail ..

I have been curious also about the immediate implications to an intervening CWP holder, and have searched for news regarding an initial arrest and charges against one of these citizens. I can't find any evidence of CWP's arrest in these recent high-profile cases, where witnesses backed up the story, here in South Carolina. This appears to reflect the law here:

...... A person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action, unless the person against whom deadly force was used is a law enforcement officer acting in the performance of his official duties and he identifies himself in accordance with applicable law or the person using deadly force knows or reasonably should have known the person is a law enforcement officer.

H.4301 (R412) was signed by the Governor on June 9, 2006.

 

[Blackshirt]

I'm reminded of the fellow in Oregon who was armed, but did not engage the Umpqua Community College killer because he was afraid that the police would mistake him for a bad guy. He must now live with the fact that he might have made a difference, but did not. To quote Colonel Grossman:

"Denial kills you twice. It kills you once, at your moment of truth when you are not physically prepared: you didn't bring your gun, you didn't train. Your only defense was wishful thinking. Hope is not a strategy. Denial kills you a second time because even if you do physically survive, you are psychologically shattered by your fear, helplessness, and horror at your moment of truth."

Just carrying your firearm and knowing how to use it is not enough. You must make a number of moral decisions before your "moment of truth" and reconcile them in advance if you wish to emotionally survive a deadly force encounter. You must decide if your personal survival is your only priority, or if the protection of others is also part of your plan. It is a really tough decision that only you can make and either choice will determine how you arm yourself and when/how you will act. This is the part of "the firearms issue" that the government should be addressing if they are truly concerned about gun violence. This is the area that many gun owners have not addressed in their training. The first rule of gun fighting is to have a gun...but it is not the only rule. Educate yourself about the law and learn about "use of force continuums." If we are going to make ourselves self-reliant, we must undertake our responsibilities from the moral high ground. Otherwise, we are only a little better than those we would seek to stop.

Sorry about the high horse...

 

[John R]

Be a good witness, unless they start shooting people.
I'd never start a gun fight in a store with people in there.

 

[Donn]

Consider this in your scenario. You're waiting to pay for your coffee and morning paper and see Mr. Bad Guy doing his thing. You take advantage of his tunnel vision, draw your weapon, order him to drop his and hit the deck. You know, like it happens on TV. Instead, Mr. BG decides he likes his chances, turns on you and opens up. Now everyone in the store as well as passing on the street is in play. Mr. BG doesn't care, he's likely been inside before, going back doesn't scare him. You, on the other hand, have a lawyer attached to every round. Where they wind up will have a direct impact on your life. Second, when the police roll up, they won't know who the bad guy is. Your "courageous act" could send you to the hospital or the morgue, courtesy of the other good guys. Let your conscience be your guide.

 

[jokerl90]

Other things to think about.
Being the first to fire could have unintended consequences, shooting the BG causes his gun to discharge and kill/hurt someone.

After it's over, turns out the BG was holding a BB/airsoft gun.

One pearl of wisdom from another poster here that shouldn't get lost, "Before I enter a stop and rob, I always look in thru the door first. Anything look strange? Always pay attention to what other "customers" are doing". I really need to work on that myself.

There are exceptions to this, but it seems like you would want to be the last to fire and not the first.

Slightly off topic, thought I would share this.
15 or 20 years ago in Dothan,AL there was a store I used to stop at a lot. It was owned by a very nice family and it was a freaking gold mine. They had a problem with people driving off without paying for gas.
Owner recognizes a car that had run off before, so he runs out to stop them with his son following. Car charges the father, son takes this as deadly threat. Car stops, one kid bails out and runs away. Son (with father screaming at him not to) begins shooting at the runner, aiming for his heels as he said he was trained to do (reserve deputy). As the runner gets across road and goes down ditch, one round ricochets off pavement into his back and kills him.
Family sells store to pay sons legal defense and son get a pretty stiff sentence in state prison.

 

[rock_castle]

Tough call indeed. If one of my kids is working the counter and some dirtbag pulls a knife or gun on them, I would hope someone would step up and help them survive the situation. Life is precious and very fragile, and mindless violence seems to be everywhere.

 

[Mainsail]

The current training model for civilians faced with an active shooter scenario is "run-hide-fight".

You realize that in my eyes, you are a civilian. I agree that the training model for citizens (as opposed to police officers) is run-hide-fight, however that model is based entirely on the assumption of unarmed citizens. The trend has been to prepare the majority, and sad to say the majority of citizens prefer to be unarmed. The majority of citizens in any state with concealed permits or licenses available to them will not get one, and of those that do, few will carry despite it being legal to do so.

Police officers train for these situations every day.

I love ya brother, but this is pure hyperbole. Police officers don't train every day, and of the innumerable agencies in this country, almost none have an identical training program. In some places there are citizens who put in significantly more training and practice than the sworn officers 'protecting' them.

I agree in some part with most of the rest. I will say that as a citizen I refuse to flatly declare (publicly or to myself) what I will or will not do in any situation. The biggest lesson I took away from 5600 flying hours is that NO situation will ever be so cut-and-dry that I could make such a declaration in advance. Heck, our airplanes were built in the early 60s and they were still writing and rewriting the emergency procedures right up until the planes retired to the boneyard in 2002. I will add that airplanes are mechanical devices, and far less variable than humans and their behaviors.

It's not a yes or no, true or false question. It never is.

When I lived in Tacoma a citizen was in an auto parts store when someone came in with a gun pointed at the clerk announcing a robbery. The citizen didn't hesitate, he drew and fired as fast as you can say jack-be-nimble and dropped the robber. He wasn't charged. Same sit at another time or place could have ended the same or different. Since we don't know, we shouldn't try to make black and white declarations about we would or wouldn't do. The best we can do is to be prepared such that we have the best chance of success with whatever choice we make.

 

[deadear dan]

Create distance/cover for yourself. Observe and 911. If he begins shooting people then I would engage. Most likely scenario is he wants to get the money and run. Let him. Avoid confrontation at (almost) all costs. Imminent protection of life is the exception. Unfortunately that assessment may come at the cost of someone getting hurt.

 

[wsr]

"snip"

Your authorization to use your carry weapon extends ONLY to situations in which YOU are DIRECTLY threatened with death or serious harm - NOT others, except in the case of your family (or certain others) in certain situations (such as defending the interior spaces of your home).

Being a bystander in a store does NOT qualify - in ANY jurisdiction in this country - unless the perp acts in threat to you, directly. If he/she were to make overt threats with a deadly weapon to you, then light him up. If not, you would seriously risk prosecution.

WRONG I am sure there are some States where this is the case [liberal east coast I would guess]...not all or even a majority, three states have already been mentioned and you can add MI and IN

Being a CC license holder does NOT make you an LEO (or any facsimile thereof) - PERIOD.

Nobody is advocating that you act like one

(There was just recently a case, exactly like this hypothetical scenario, in the news. Bystander in a store chases perp from the store, shoots at him as he is running away, chases him to his car, then shoots at the car as the guy is driving away. The bystander is in jail, charged with a number of serious crimes.)

Ridiculous comparison...shooting at a fleeing criminal is not remotely the same as shooting to protect yourself or others

I never understand the confusion on this some people seem to display. It's not that hard.

The confusion is on your part. You are right its not that hard...

 

[Smoke]

At this point I'm just repeating what's already been said.

Like others have stated I'm not going to state my intentions one way or the other on an Internet forum where everything I say is discoverable but here are some points I would consider before taking action either way.

The store is insured against just such an occurrence.

I'm not a police officer, I don't have immunity. I don't have a union lawyer on call. I am not covered under workman's comp. I don't have a city funded pension for my survivors to draw on.

Several years ago a man named REDACTED intervened in a robbery at a Burger King in Miami. The robbery occurred during the lunch rush and REDACTED drew his gun an ordered the robber to drop his. Instead the robber opened fire in the crowed lobby and shot REDACTED 3 times. REDACTEDreturned fire and killed the robber. Burger King didn't pay 1 dime towards his medical expenses which must have been in the hundreds of thousands

 

[vytoland]

I'm in a store and someone armed with a firearm comes in to rob it....................exit, stage left.............

 

[shinbone]

As a retired attorney and judge, I remind you that self-defense (including the defense of another) is an affirmative defense. That means that AFTER you have been criminally charged, you get the opportunity to prove to the jury (or judge if you elected to have a bench trial) that you shot the so-and-so as the only practical way to save your life or the life of another. That means that you were criminally charged, either posted a bond or stayed in jail, got a lawyer or were assigned and overworked Public Defender, and went through the hassel (and expense) of the publicity and the trial.

I think this overstates the odds of being criminally charged as being 100%. Practically no DA is going to bring a sure-to-be-lost case to trial. Especially when it involves charging someone that is going to be regarded as a hero by the public. If the witness statements/other facts show that the shooting was a justified case of self-defense/defense-of-others, there will be no charges field. Obviously, if it is not a clear cut case of a justified use of deadly force, then the shooter is going to have some 'splain'n to do. Meaning, make d@mn sure you are justified if you are going to shoot.

JMHO

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

Consider this in your scenario. You're waiting to pay for your coffee and morning paper and see Mr. Bad Guy doing his thing. You take advantage of his tunnel vision, draw your weapon, and shoot him in the back of the head.

Fixed that for you.

Alertness
Decisiveness
Aggressiveness
Speed
Coolness
Ruthlessness
Surprise
Principles of Personal Defense by Jeff Cooper

 

[Retired Chief]

Shinbone,
Lawyers are trained to look for the worst case scenario. What you say is often (thank God) true, but the flip side of the coin is a prosecutor who has no cojones, and, looking at the next election, decides it is smarter for him to bring charges and blame the dismissal on the jury.
As far as I know, all chief prosecuting attorneys are elected (or appointed to take over the remainder of an elected term), and while many make the decision to prosecute or not based upon the law and whether the odds are in favor of winning the case, others base their prosecutorial discretion on which way they perceive the political wind is blowing. Cynical? Nah, realistic.

 

[Whitwabit]

You do NOT have the obligations of an LEO.....NOR do you have the AUTHORITY of one. Your authorization to use your carry weapon extends ONLY to situations in which YOU are DIRECTLY threatened with death or serious harm - NOT others, except in the case of your family (or certain others) in certain situations (such as defending the interior spaces of your home).

Being a bystander in a store does NOT qualify - in ANY jurisdiction in this country - unless the perp acts in threat to you, directly. If he/she were to make overt threats with a deadly weapon to you, then light him up. If not, you would seriously risk prosecution.

Being a CC license holder does NOT make you an LEO (or any facsimile thereof) - PERIOD.

(There was just recently a case, exactly like this hypothetical scenario, in the news. Bystander in a store chases perp from the store, shoots at him as he is running away, chases him to his car, then shoots at the car as the guy is driving away. The bystander is in jail, charged with a number of serious crimes.)

I never understand the confusion on this some people seem to display. It's not that hard.

Your state law may say that but not every jurisdiction as you stated does .. several including myself live in states that do authorize you to act for others !! We are justified to use force up to and including deadly force for the defense of you , your love ones and others .. also say's we are allowed in the commission of a felony !!

In Illinois the law says - a) "A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony. "

The scenario you describe is nothing like the one stated in this thread .. In yours the perp is running away .. You are not allowed to shoot someone in the back running away !! or at a car leaving the scene of the crime ..

Those who say Leo's train for situations like this .. well talked to the local LEO and other then his initial Police Academy school which was done years ago .. very little training is done .. He does go to a class or two during the year mainly on new police techniques and the law but not to a school where reenactments where he shoots his weapon !! I asked him how many times he shoots his police carry weapon and he told me 2 times a year to qualify and a couple of other times usually just before the need to qualify .. Many of us go to the range and shoot an average of 2 times a month more.. And there are others here that shoot every week and some might even shoot every day !!

Sadly I have found police training is usually woefully inadequate in most instances .. May be one of the reasons some police forces have so many bad police shootings .. Chicago for one comes to mind !!

 

[37hotrod]

Well, by all means, call your highly trained range buddies the next time it all hits the fan.

 

[Rastoff]

So how many times does the Conceal Carry holder that gets involved and shoots the robber really go to jail ??

This is a good question, but you need to put it out of your mind. If you need to defend yourself or someone else, you need to be ready to do it immediately. This kind of thinking will cause you to hesitate and that very well could be the last thing you do.

A person who lawfully uses deadly force is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action,...

This is a great law and I wish we had it here in CA. However, this does not mean you won't go to jail.

In any situation there will be an investigation. It could be short or long. You might go to jail, win your case in court and be released. You might go to jail and be released at the arraignment. You might be released at the scene. We all want the third option.

This all boils down to one thing; is this a real threat to you or someone else? If the answer is "maybe", then you could be in for a rough ride should you choose to shoot. If the answer is yes, the next question is, what can you do about it? The answer to that might be nothing.

It's good to talk about this stuff. Preparedness is the key to being able to defend yourself. Having at least thought about it first, allows us to more easily deal with the situation at hand.

 

[Whitwabit]

Well, by all means, call your highly trained range buddies the next time it all hits the fan.

I see your LEO badge .. may I ask what kind of training is required of you as a police officer each year ??

Edit .. If your a officer in Baraboo, Wi .. per you location .. its slightly smaller then the town I live in .. I would be interested to know if our police are under trained compared to your training !

 

[marinedoc69]

I can't add much to the incredible advice given above except that one should be aware of the consequences in the stated scenario if, by accident, you would kill an innocent bystander. This is something law enforcement officers faces, theoretically, every day on the job. And they don't have the option of remaining in the background if called to a robbery in progress.

 

[Grayfox]

I decided a long time ago that I would not be the one to start a gunfight.
But if the BG starts shooting, all bets are off.

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

I decided a long time ago that I would not be the one to start a gunfight.
But if the BG starts shooting, all bets are off.

A shooting is when bullets fly one way. A gunfight is when bullets fly both ways. Therefore it is the second person to fire who starts the gunfight.

Shooting first is so obviously a huge advantage that I don't understand deliberately planning to wait until it's too late before defending.

 

[37hotrod]

Since you asked so nicely...

I am not an officer in Baraboo. I am recently retired as a Federal Officer, working out of Chicago. In addition, I have worked on a small city force, and a large county Sheriff's department.

I have no idea what the training regiment is for officers in Baraboo, and neither do you. If you think that police officers are woefully under-trained, then commit enough resources to better train them.

Somehow, we have lost the point of this thread. The original question was regarding legal, ethical and moral justification for "getting involved". I stand by my original post. ( My last post was, perhaps, a little snarky. )

Before you, as a private citizen, draw your weapon and become a player in the situation, understand all that that decision entails. Once you start that ball rolling, you HAVE to commit to finishing the thing. You can't do it halfway. You also have to be ready to accept the consequences of your actions. THIS is what police officers train for every day, because they live it every day. Anything less is not an option.

Rant over.