Engage or not?

[Muss Muggins]

Have told this story in other threads over the years but here it is, again.

About ten (10) years ago I was in my local beerroom watching college football on a pleasant Saturday afternoon. Two (2) knuckleheads repeatedly tried to provoke other patrons to the extent everyone was annoyed at their antics. They were not trying to pick a physical fight it seemed; they were just acting like idiots.

No bouncer(s) that afternoon but manager and bartender finally told them they're done and began escorting them to the door. At that point one kicked a hole in the glass at which time I stood up, joined the 'good guys', and told the misfits to get moving. By then we were on the sidewalk of a very busy roadway.

One of the punks said: 'Go get the gun.' I said: 'Don't have to go anywhere to get mine' as I proned them out. Soon thereafter the local county PD arrived and took charge. Of interest is that the county cops tossed their car...no gun(s.).

Some may have done nothing, but to those I say what WOULD you have done? Waited for them to come back with a gun? Hoped they were just kidding?

That said, I am as well prepared to deal with situations like this as most anyone, and my internal makeup simply demands I do so.

Some of your methods obviously vary..

Be safe.

So, if I'm clear on this, you pointed a gun at a couple of drunks, then detained them at gunpoint, after they broke a window (not yours), and mentioned a gun, and you admit they weren't trying to pick a fight, but rather just being idiots, thereby becoming both bar bouncer and local constable?

 

[rwsmith]

How about this philosophy.....

I you have to think about a choice, you most likely should not draw.

If you don't have a choice, then the decision is made.

Anybody think that this is feasible, or just silly? Do you think it would cover a vast majority of incidents?

 

[OldeTSgt]

I hear you, but when you arrive at the source of the gun fire, who's the bad guy?

This is certainly true - But the OP scenario was someone comes in and points a gun at a clerk (armed robbery) in that scenario I am assuming I am in the immediate vicinity of the gun being presented by the bad guy - not talking about running to the other end of a mall. I probably would not have done that seek cover and cover with pistol - someone pointing a gun at a clerk one of the convenience stores I frequent (people I know on a friendly basis as a customer) then I am guessing I will act as judgement dictates - I would no sooner not act if someone pointed a gun at one of my friends heads than those of the Corner Store employees that I talk to and interact with on a daily basis.

 

[Smoke]

There was a story on Arf.com several years back about a member who attempted to intervene in a robbery. By the author's own account the robber fired immediately and without the slightest hesitation at the very first hint of resistance by the author.

The author also stated that he hit the robber twice out of 8 shots and the robber hit the author 4 out of 5 shots and almost disabled the author for life.

I remember reading somewhere that according to the FBI less than 1/10 of 1 percent of robberies end in violence. The numbers that I heard were 2 out of every 1000.

With odds like that I think I'd be better off letting things play out unless I saw a behavior that was a definite precursor to the robber opening fire such as trying to herd people into a back room.

 

[Smoke]

I have been a hunter/shooter all my life - my reactions are so fast sometimes my wife just shakes her head (my gun is out and firing before she even sometimes recognizes the target) like the last beaver I shot or the last deer.

Checking traps one day - the water was up and my trap was down - I grapped my chain and was bringing it up when the beaver came swimming up - I immediately drew and fired center of the beaver and killed it - "in the blink of an eye" - so I had two beaver to skin. The other beaver was drowned in my trap. 45 acp makes a big hole.

To paraphrase Bruce Lee "Beavers don't shoot back".

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

There was a story on Arf.com several years back about a member who attempted to intervene in a robbery. By the author's own account the robber fired immediately and without the slightest hesitation at the very first hint of resistance by the author.

The author also stated that he hit the robber twice out of 8 shots and the robber hit the author 4 out of 5 shots and almost disabled the author for life.

My CCW Shooting AAR by Blitz_308/nascar3n8fan It is a very worthwhile read.

Blitz initially believed it was a joke. The robber forced them to move inside and proned them out. The shooting started with Blitz being shot in BOTH hands and grazed on the stomach before he could turn it into a gun fight. He got off two shots before his gun jammed; he later realized he actually hadn't depressed the grip safety. He dropped behind cover to clear it then popped back up to continue shooting. The fight continued until the bad guy ran out of ammo while Blitz was still shooting at which point he fled. He landed one more hit to the chest. Blitz fired four shots total and made one hit, also to the bad guy's hand. The police were able to follow the blood trail and capture the criminal.


The incident is a great anecdote for illustrating many things relating to self-defense. Everything from the danger of being moved to a secondary location to the prevalence of hand injuries to the importance of ammunition testing, the bad guy was using Speer Gold Dots that didn't expand from a J-frame.

 

[OldeTSgt]

To paraphrase Bruce Lee "Beavers don't shoot back".

True enough.

But, I am experienced enough in dealing with bad guys to know what my limitations are and what I am capable of and what they are capable of.

 

[SMSgt]

Florida law:
(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

So I guess one could justifiably pop a cap in the perp's head in the OP's stated scenario.

 

[jokerl90]

Found this video on youtube that touches on this discussion at about 2:32.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I3i9pZ9ikcU[/ame]

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

While watching the video in the http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...barbershop-friday-night-video-link-added.html thread I realized no one had mentioned something important in this thread.

The possibility that the bad guy will have a negligent discharge if you don't intervene. I would not expect violent criminals to demonstrate safe gun handling skills. Whether war-gaming scenarios in your head or actually being in the situation you may decide to shoot the bad guy to prevent harm by an ND instead of an intentional act.

 

[Muss Muggins]

While watching the video in the http://smith-wessonforum.com/concea...barbershop-friday-night-video-link-added.html thread I realized no one had mentioned something important in this thread.

The possibility that the bad guy will have a negligent discharge if you don't intervene. I would not expect violent criminals to demonstrate safe gun handling skills. Whether war-gaming scenarios in your head or actually being in the situation you may decide to shoot the bad guy to prevent harm by an ND instead of an intentional act.

So, you're advocating shooting the bad guy because you think he might be too stupid to shoot the people he intends to shoot?

 

[V0OBWxZS16]

So, you're advocating shooting the bad guy because you think he might be too stupid to shoot the people he intends to shoot?

That's not what I said. I said that he might shoot someone by accident because his gun-handling skills are poor even if he intends to use the gun only as a bluff. I also did not advocate for or against shooting. I advocated for keeping the possibility in mind when evaluating the situation.