Ethical Question

[s&wchad]

The gun Jack Ruby used to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald went for $220K in 1991. I wish I sold it!

History is what it is...

 

[Neumann]

Sort of inspired by, but not limited to, the ongoing events in the Middle East:

Would you deliberately seek to own a gun or tool surplused from an organization that (likely) committed human-rights abuses?

For example, there’s a lot of third-generation S&W semiautomatics coming back in and floating around places like Robinson Trading Post in decent shape. As a firearm, there’s nothing wrong with them, and most have been carried a lot and shot a little. But in the back of my head, I don’t know if I’m super-comfortable carrying something that was used as a facilitator for what I personally don’t agree with. For the same reasons, I haven’t picked up any German Russian-capture milsurps…as much as I love them (and I do), I don’t want them enough to buy them.

I don’t believe in ghosts or bloody nightmares, but I also don’t want Bull Connor’s nightstick or the Trapdoor from Wounded Knee in my karma…

What are your thoughts?

You are entitled to your opinions and choices.

 

[Muss Muggins]

I’ve acquired a little display of guns that were used in high profile assassinations. Not the actual guns, but same model. I throw them out at gun shows in a glass top case with some laminated cards that explain the gun. Jack Ruby’s pistol, Son of Sam bulldog, Sirhan Sirhan’s pistol. Lee Harvey Oswald’s Victory, John David Chapman’s Undercover, John Hinckley’s RG22 and some Devastator .22 rounds, you get the idea. I’ve got an Oswald Carcano rifle, but can’t find the optic. Always creates a lot of discussion at my table . . .

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Have owned a few Nazi marked guns. Didn’t keep any.
Have had the itch for a WWII German Paratrooper Gravity Knife!

 

[Kinman]

About the only thing I have had any issue with as far as ethics and firearms is I refuse to own anything that has a swastika on it. I have some WWI and prior German stuff, but draw the line on Nazi emblems. I had a sweet little .32 PPK fall into my hands that I traded off due to its Nazi provenance. A friend of mine left me some very interesting German daggers and Boar Swords, I got rid of everything that had a Nazi provenance. I went through the AK build period and had a Chinese MAK 90 "match rifle", it was the most accurate AK variant of the bunch but I no longer own it or any AK/AR rifle. I did win a club built AR in a $25 raffle, I have no interest in the AR platform and ended up having it built into a PDW in .40S&W, its pretty sweet. I had it threaded to accept the same suppressor my .40 USP Tactical HK uses, I could easily sell it to any number of people that have shot it. I could really care less about high capacity magazines as well, I got out of that mind set years ago and almost all of my firearms are either single shots, muzzle loaders, or cartridge guns that hold less than ten rounds. I went through the "fun" period of cheap ammo and high capacity mags where my son and I would burn through a thousand rounds at a time. He thought it was a lot of fun as long as dad was buying the ammo and supplying the platform, we went through tens of thousands of rounds when it was $50-75 per thousand. I had a full auto Uzi that went through 33 rnds of 9mm at a sitting, I traded it to a guy for a pretty nice '55 Chevy Tudor.

 

[s&wchad]

About the only thing I have had any issue with as far as ethics and firearms is I refuse to own anything that has a swastika on it...

Sounds like you have a problem with war trophies brought home by our greatest generation. Nazis didn't bring them to the US...

I've sold WWII German guns, knives and gear and never thought of ownership as supporting the Reich.

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Tempest in a teapot. Selling a weapon to a ne'er-do-well, person, company, or government is unethical. Buying a bad guy's surplus/forfeiture is a reeking irrelevancy,

 

[Frailer]

Off the top of my head, the only guns I can think of that I will not purchase are those that are Nazi-marked and those with ivory grips.

I feel no ill will whatsoever toward those who collect such items. I just don’t want to personally contribute to the trade. I feel the same way about “tortoiseshell” guitar picks. Even if one purchases items that were made from antique material, keeping the demand alive encourages poaching.

I also have no desire to own any Soviet-era arms, but that isn’t a matter of morals or ethics; they just don’t appeal to me.

 

[Golddollar]

I have a Mosin-Nagant rifle and an 1895 Nagant revolver, both made in Russia. They both have Finnish capture marks and that is why I bought those particular pieces. I grew up in an area where there were a lot of people of Finnish heritage. I studied Finnish history and have a great admiration for the way the Finns stood up to the Russians in the 1939 Winter War. So in honor of the Finns I have those pieces that the Finns captured from the Russians.

 

[The Last Standing Knight]

Consider this:
A weapon used in the course of evil redeemed by an individual who uses it for good. That applies to people as well.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

When the Israelis were equipping themselves for their War of Independence in 1948 they use large numbers of Mauser 98ks. Likewise in 1950 the South Koreans used large numbers of Japanese firearms.
At the Battle of South Mountain on September 14, 1862 a Confederate brigade was captured. The commander of a New Jersey regiment told his men to stack their smoothbores and take the surrendered rifles muskets.
Seems there's a long human tradition of taking war trophies.

 

[Oldengineer]

A short tutorial on ethics. Ethics can be defined as doing the right thing when there is no law or policy mandating it. An example might be running ahead of a very old woman at the grocery store to get the last cart. Nothing says that is illegal or wrong, but ethically it stinks.

It's been taught that virtually all of life's difficulties are embedded in 4 ethical contradictions. They are as follows:

1. Short term vs long term - which is ethically correct? The answer might be some of both.
2. Justice vs mercy - your poor neighbor gets fired for stealing at work. He is desperate. You feel sorry for his situation and use your influence to get him a new job. 6 months later you inquire about his performance and the response is that he was fired for stealing.
3. Truth vs loyalty - it's WW2, you are caught behind enemy lines. You have been taught to always tell the truth. With a gun to your head, you are told to identify where your troops are or die.
4. Individual vs community - do we honor the individual situation at the expense of others?

There you have it. Is a Rogue nation firearm worth assigning any of the contradictions? I don't think the firearm knows or cares. That's my post from camping in Alaska.

Tom H.

 

[45Smashemflat]

I have a K98k that was brought back in a duffle bag by my great uncle. It is marked with swastikas in several places. It does not imply Nazism to me, it implies victory over Nazism.

 

[DWalt]

I bought a pawnshop PPK that turned out to be a WW2 SS-issued gun. Didn't bother me, I even shot it a few times before I sold it.
I am pretty sure I lost at least some relatives to the Nazi occupation in WW2.
History is history. I also have a WW2 1911a1 that was in the European theater.

I did pass on buying an Ed Brown one time that had been a suicide gun. The finish was scratched at the muzzle from the prior owners teeth and the shop wanted way too much considering the finish dama

Likewise. I once came into a Colt OP that had been a suicide gun. I was somewhat bothered by having it, and did not keep it very long. Also had a .22 rifle which had been used in a local slaughterhouse for a long time. I did not keep it long either. It gave me the creeps. The most beat-up gun I ever saw.

 

[GypsmJim]

My Grandpa and Great Uncle lived thru WWI in Germany, and then emigrated to the USA in 1925. They often spoke affectionately about their Mausers, that were freely distributed after the war in Post Offices, given to them to help police and defend their country, since they were demilitarized..

Other relatives were in Germany thru WWII and spoke about the atrocities THEY endured, because they were good Christians and did NOT support the 3rd Reich.

My FIL served in WWII in Germany and came back with documented bringback firearms and a NAZI flag. Another Great Uncle was a Wehrmacht soldier that was killed in battle.

Not all Germans were Nazis. I have several rifles and bayonets that show blood pitting. When I look at them I feel sorrow. It simply shows me that people like us are good people, but we are sometimes forced into bad things by our governments.

 

[Greyman50]

Being a US Military historian and collector Ive had many many assorted weapons from WWI and WWII. Being in a group that was hired by US Navy and USAF to display our collections at air shows we met countless WWII Veterans. I wish I/ we had recorded our conversations with these Veterans as they are all gone. Weapons cant talk but Veterans can. nuf sed

 

[GypsmJim]

Being a US Military historian and collector Ive had many many assorted weapons from WWI and WWII. Being in a group that was hired by US Navy and USAF to display our collections at air shows we met countless WWII Veterans. I wish I/ we had recorded our conversations with these Veterans as they are all gone. Weapons cant talk but Veterans can. nuf sed

My Dad served in the South Pacific on a Destroyer Escort. His stories were few and far between.

When in port they were allowed to shoot small arms at the garbage they thru over board. His favorites were a 1911, a Garand and a Tommy Gun. (he said he never mastered the Thompson)

His other story was when they needed repairs and went back to Pearl. His CO was a reserve officer and a businessman. He would not let his crew sleep in the barracks, so he got them rooms at Royal Hawaiian (the little pink hotel).

He had pictures of him and his buddies drinking beer at the bar. But he never talked about the kamikaze that sent them there is the first place.

Sixty years later I went to Waikiki. I took pictures of the Royal Hawaiian. When he saw them I could see the tears in his eyes.

 

[quikdraw67]

I have owned weapons with the proof marks of Nazi Germany, Communist China, the Soviet Union, post-USSR Russia, and various Com-Bloc countries, as well as former Com Bloc countries as current production.

It didn't and doesn't bother me. I don't have a Nazi or Commie fetish, but they did make some pretty good, interesting guns.

The one gun I refused to take was the revolver my brother killed himself with, My other brother didn't want it either.

That is the only gun I'd be OK with going into the smelter.

 

[CH4]

If I wanted it, owning it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest.

 

[ken158]

Your humanizing a inanimate object.

You want something go get it, I would be more concerned with condition not its possible use.

Now if it came with serious provenance that it was owned by a certain real bad person, that is another category. Your conscience will have to be your guide!

Look at the auctions and see how much guns bring that were used by criminals / outlaws in this country and others. People are mystified by even the opportunity of owning a gun that a Bonnie or Clyde or maybe Billy the Kid, etc once owned regardless of who was the victim of their actions.