Evaluate this statement please

[Kelly Green]

If the goal is to only penetrate skin and/or break a bone, then I guess this would matter, but since the goal is to incapacitate your attacker as quickly as possible, this bit of trivia is meaningless.

The importance of shot placement goes without saying for most of us, but the idea that "its not the size of the gun or ammo that counts" is true only to a point. For instance, no matter how accurate someone may be with their trusty .25 or .32 ACP, it doesn't add up to much of a defensive weapon.

My view is you should carry and shoot the hottest ammo you can effectively handle. If that's .38 Special +P ammo, that's fine. If you can proficiently shoot .357 Magnum loads from your snubby, all the better.

I had an old Top Sergeant tell me one time that if I ever had to use my .45 in close combat to make sure I hit a vital organ or bone, otherwise he's likely to keep coming.

Even a .357 magnum may not stop an assailant if the bullet only passes through tissue.

This bit of meaningless trivia was to underscore how ambiguous the whole argument over caliber, bullet weight, bullet design, etc. is. Shoot well, live well.

 

[XTrooper]

Thanks for the clarification. For the record, we're in complete agreement.

 

[500 Magnum Nut]

"There is no reason to *EVER* go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does NOT result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels."

Go.

Wrong. A magnum is still a magnum out of a 2" barrel.

Of course there is more blast and recoil, that's why it hits harder.

 

[Engineer1911]

A bullet only has to travel at 163 fps to penetrate skin and 213 fps to break bone.

Now I know why CCI CB caps shot in a rifle are silent AND deadly on pesty critters. Misses don't count.

 

[KEN L]

In my case, that statement is 1000% correct. To me there is no advantage in the magnum round out of a 2" barrel at the short distance of intended use. The target is going to be just as dead, provided I do my part.

Has anyone ever done a side by side comparison between the magnum and an equivalent weight .38 +P round showing a velocity comparison as it relates to penetration? I think the results may surprise the magnum fanciers out there. At any rate, I'll stick with the non-magnum variety.

 

[Tom Beavert]

What Doc Marc said

+1 to what Doc Marc said, I have tried it (some what) 1)dark 2) somewhat enclosed space 3) no ear pro. You can't, or let's say I would'nt try to compare several different sets of ammo, my hearing is bad enough already. Let's just say the 357 makes you stop and think - I own both 357, and 38, but in my home the SD weapons close to me are 45 ACP in a 1911, and 44 SPL Bulldog, that's what I choose, but that is off subject of the OP.
Be well
TB

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

It's not just the penetration that matters. The hydrostatic shock affect to a real live body counts. Bet on it!

Either round will penetrate a fairly soft human body, no doubt.

Your .38's may do the job for you and that's fine with me, since I have no truck with anyone who uses them.

The question is- will they stop someone "right now" where they are? Can you be sure that your round will stop someone before they can reach you and do you harm? I'll take any advantage I can get, and there's no doubt after all these years that the .357 is superior.

Consider the fact that the original .357 was the Registered Magnum, and the barrel length chosen by the FBI was the 3.5" length. They already had .38's and even the .38 HV (.38/44), yet they needed more power. Not only to penetrate car body's, but to stop on the spot, the people they were shooting at. If the .38 was truly equal, they never would have asked for the .357 to be invented.

 

[kauphycup]

What is sauce for the 2" barrel isn't necessarily sauce for a 4", 6", 18" or 20" barrel.

The "muzzle flash" is powder that was expelled and not used to push the bullet down the barrel. The .357 round can be and is by some manufactures and hand loaders, optomized for the barrel length to give the maximum "oomph" to the bullet as it exits without the teeth rattling sound, recoil and muzzle flash. The same can be said of the .38in its' variations.

I personally use Speer GD Short Barrel 357.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

What is sauce for the 2" barrel isn't necessarily sauce for a 4", 6", 18" or 20" barrel.

The "muzzle flash" is powder that was expelled and not used to push the bullet down the barrel. The .357 round can be and is by some manufactures and hand loaders, optomized for the barrel length to give the maximum "oomph" to the bullet as it exits without the teeth rattling sound, recoil and muzzle flash. The same can be said of the .38in its' variations.

I personally use Speer GD Short Barrel 357.

Actually, the flash is the hot gasses re-igniting as they hit the oxyogen rich atmosphere. In small rounds like those used in handguns, almost the entire charge is burned completely before the bullet even leaves the case, and in rifles it happens within the first 2-3 inches of the barrel after the bullet leaves the case mouth. There is an excellent article in Handloader magazine a few years back that covers this in some detail.

You are right about the load being matched to the application though. It is one reason why Buffalo Bore uses flash suppresed powders for their tactical ammo.

 

[seagill]

I'd prefer the .357 if for nothing else the variety of ammo choices. Mild to wild, pick you poison!

 

[mtime7]

If the goal is to only penetrate skin and/or break a bone, then I guess this would matter, but since the goal is to incapacitate your attacker as quickly as possible, this bit of trivia is meaningless.

The importance of shot placement goes without saying for most of us, but the idea that "its not the size of the gun or ammo that counts" is true only to a point. For instance, no matter how accurate someone may be with their trusty .25 or .32 ACP, it doesn't add up to much of a defensive weapon.

My view is you should carry and shoot the hottest ammo you can effectively handle. If that's .38 Special +P ammo, that's fine. If you can proficiently shoot .357 Magnum loads from your snubby, all the better.

I knew some poor country people down in Florida when I grew up that took deer with a .22LR, not because they wanted to it was all they had.. They made head shots and it appeared they had no problems.. I knew a deputy in Ga. that told me of an officer shooting were the he emptied his M66 into a druged out individual hitting him 4 times and the man was still shooting back..That deputy told me the only sure way to stop someone is with a head shot. He didn't say what caliber it had to be but I bet a .32acp would work fine..

 

[jrb_pro]

This thread has been a GREAT read!!

 

[scott001313]

2" = .38 special +P

If you never needed one, five ought to be enough. I see no good reason to carry magnum rounds in a small frame 2" revolver.

 

[Andy Taylor]

You didn't get enough answers on The High Road and The Firing Line?

 

[colt_saa]

"There is no reason to *EVER* go with .357 mag in a J-frame, as the significantly larger muzzle blast and flash, and harsher recoil of the .357 Magnum does NOT result in substantially improved terminal performance compared to the more controllable .38 Special bullets when fired from 2" barrels."

Go.

The statement is fiction

 

[Dave T]

Sure is a lot of mis/bad information being thrown out here. Oh well, I'm not willing to get into an argument trying to change anyone's mind.

But...since the OP was asking us to evaluate the statement I'll throw out my $.02 worth. YMMV!

I spent my last 6 years before retiring as the chief firearms instructor and range master for my department. I was responsible for training and qualifying 400 armed personnel, from the Sheriff's Mounted Posse and Aero Squad (volunteers) to the SWAT Team. After retiring I ran my own firearms training business for 10 years and trained over 1000 people just for CCW qualification, plus additional self-defense classes.

My experience tells me the vast majority of people cannot utilize what little increased performance there might be from a 357 out of a 2" barrel because of lack of control for follow up shots. The statement said

...substantially improved terminal performance...

In my opinion the terminal performance desired is stopping the assailant and the Magnum round in a 2" barrel will not "substantially" improve that.

You may now continue your argument.
Dave