Extreme Spread and Standard Deviation ?

T2C

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I loaded ammunition for my Body Guard 38, fired it over the chronograph this morning, then fired shot groups. I was not expecting the results I saw.

Reload 1-S&S Casting 158g RNFP coated lead bullet + 3.2g Win 231 + WSP @ 1.434" C.O.L. Extreme Spread was 124 fps and Standard Deviation was 51 fps.

Reload 2-S&S Casting 125g FP coated lead bullet + 3.8g Win 231 + WSP @ 1.445" C.O.L. Extreme Spread was 96 fps and Standard Deviation was 40 fps.

Based on the chronograph readings, I did not expect decent shot groups. I fired offhand at 15 yards on a silhouette target with no distinguishing aiming point on the target.

Reload 1 group was 1-1/8" W x 2" H
Reload 2 group was 2-1/4" W x 2-13/16" H

I never would have believed the accuracy results based on the huge Standard Deviation of both loads. To make sure nothing was wrong with the chronograph or the set up, I fired over the chronograph with my 8mm Mauser and the data was close to the same as I recorded in the past. ES/SD = 38/13 fps.

After shooting groups, I fired three defensive courses of fire for a total of 90 rounds and accuracy was very good with both loads. It does not make sense.
 
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If you're getting good accuracy at 25 yards, ignore the figures unless they are really wild. 15 yards is too close to tell you anything useful. A poor load will shoot well at 15 yards. 124 and 96 might be a bit "wild"; do a re-fire and see what you get both in accuracy and the numbers.

If you're trying to shoot small groups at 1,000 yards, the SD and ES will become more important, but low numbers in themselves are seldom an indication of an accurate load.
 
It makes all kinds of sense. You're shooting at 45 FEET. The difference in trajectory even with an SD of 200 would be a fraction of an inch.
Your groups at 15 yds of around 2 inches translates to 13 minutes of angle dispersion, which in your 8mm hunting rifle would be disastrous.
You are mostly looking at your wiggles, which are larger than the dispersion of the gun or ammunition.


I get students who shoot even wider "patterns" of a foot wide and demand to know how to "fix" the gun or get the "best" ammo.
Front sight, press...
 
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Is there something that tells what are good ES and SD numbers?
I just bought a Labradar and all that stuff is new to me.

I know the definitions of ES and SD, but I have no clue what are good numbers and what are bad numbers.

Some of my reloads have very low numbers and some have high numbers. I know the low numbers are better, but some of the higher numbered loads actually shoot better than the lower numbered loads.

I've shot factory ammo that has higher numbers than my reloads, so my reloads can't be all that bad.
 
It looks like I need to get back to the range and shoot groups at 25 yards.
 
Grouping is a topic very few understand. To make it simple, if you REALLY want to know what your grouping performance is with a relatively high statistical confidence level, take the average extreme spread of at least five 10-shot groups. Anything less than that is unreliable to say the least, and is a waste of time and ammunition. And use a very steady rest while firing. Shooting a few five-shot groups tells you nothing - far too much ES variability from group to group exists.
 
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It makes all kinds of sense. You're shooting at 45 FEET. The difference in trajectory even with an SD of 200 would be a fraction of an inch.
Your groups at 15 yds of around 2 inches translates to 13 minutes of angle dispersion, which in your 8mm hunting rifle would be disastrous.
You are mostly looking at your wiggles, which are larger than the dispersion of the gun or ammunition.


I get students who shoot even wider "patterns" of a foot wide and demand to know how to "fix" the gun or get the "best" ammo.
Front sight, press...

THIS^^^^^

Plus "data" from only 5 shot sample is pretty much meaningless.
 
15 yards is ok for some bullets but others may not "Settle down" until they get to 25 yards.

I have had a 110gr JHP do 581-818fps with a +/- 237
I think this was very close to sticking a bullet in the barrel !!

a 135gr GD at 846 to 856 +/- 9 in a snub nose.

One never knows what the figures will be and ES does not always mean an accurate load.
My weapons also like certain powders at certain fps with different bullet weights.

My 6" barrel with a 158gr XTP does well with Red Dot, Blue Dot and IMR 4227.
Vel. went from 778 to 976 and the ES went from 11 up to 82.
The best sweet zone was from 826 up to 867 for a standard loading.

My loaded 125gr coated 38 special loads have yet to be fired.

Good shooting.
 
15yds just isnt enough distance for even 125fps SD to really affect accuracy, imo. Even in a rifle out at 100yds, 100fps SD isnt blowing your groups up.
 
If you put a little more powder in your loads you're es will lower. You're using nothing more than starting loads (low pressure). Powders tend to do better at the high ends of the loads, more consistent.

The other thing is make sure all your shots are either muzzle up or muzzle down when you chronograph your loads.
Big difference.

What were you getting around 650fps from your 158gr bullet/3.2gr of ww231 load?
 
(ETA: Oops, Forrest r beat me to the punch! But: what he said!)

See if raising the muzzle to near vertical (up and/or down) before each shot and see if your numbers even out (or get worse.) Unless the cases are near full, you will likely also get variations in absolute velocity as well. But, as noted above, if you don't shoot past 25 or even 50 yards, the ES and SD spreads probably mean squat.
 
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also remember, if you are trying to get the mythical 0 SD, you need to shoot from the same chamber each time as minute differences in cylinder gap will give pressure / velocity changes.

The point about low pressure loads is dead on. What you maybe seeing is incomplete burning and hence, velocity variations.

If you are trying to correlate group size vs. velocity and SD, you need to clamp the gun in a Randsom rest.

A host of other variable come into play as well such as primer seating pressure, crimp pressure which plays into case wall thickness, powder compaction - - - - - you get the point.
 
Generally, my reloads with a good projectile and low ES & SD numbers are accurate. In many cases, my loads with high ES & SD numbers are not nearly as accurate. The results with these particular loads was a surprise.

Another trip to the range for some 25 yard testing will give me a better picture of how these loads will/should perform.
 
To me ES and SD are "indications" of potentially good loads or poor loads, but at less than 25 yards there is no relationship to ES, SD and group size. Load for your best grouping and ignore the ES & SD. When you get into a rifle that you will be shooting at 100 yds or more, then they matter.
 
What constitutes a good SD depends in large part on the cartridge, the barrel length and the velocities involved.

For example in a high velocity role round an SD of 10 to 15 is excellent. Thats because with an average velocity in the 3000 fps range an SD of 15 fps represents just 0.5% variation.

For a long range precision rifle I will generally reject a load that shows an SD more than 20 fps. ***See below

Short barrels tend to increase SD due to more variation in how much powder will be completely consumed during the shot.

As noted above, lower load densities also introduce more variation in the ignition and burn rate of the powder which increases SD.

Loads with very low load density can be problematic with some powders and can produce pressure spikes. A very high SD is a good thing to be aware of as the higher the SD the greater the risk of a pressure spike and if I'm getting SDs in the >50 fps range, I immediately halt the load development in that direction.

Near maximum loads often display better SDs than light loads for due to ore efficient ignition and burning, but that's also dependent on the powder being consistently burned in the available bore volume. If you start blowing partially burnt powder out the muzzle, and it's not happening in a really consistent manner then SD will increase.

Similarly, as the load approaches near maximum loads some loads can begin to show an increase in SD, which often precedes pressure spiking, just like it does at the low end of the spectrum.

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In my .38 Special target loads (3.2 gr of Red Dot with a 158 gr LSWC) I normally see an SD of 10 fps even in a 3" barrel, and still around 13 fps in a 1 7/8" barrel. That's excellent in a short barrel and generally reflects excellent accuracy.

In my .38 +P self defense loads with a 125 gr XTP I see somewhat higher SD in the 20 fps range. That's still very good for a short barrel revolver however.

I've tested a few factory loads in my .357 magnums that will display SDs in the 5-8 fps range in a 6" barrel and that is excellent by any standard.

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Most shooters have a very poor understanding of standard deviation and extreme spread. And they fail to understand how the two are related.

In my 25 or so years of chronographing loads, I've noted that it follows a normal distribution curve quite well.

This means that if you fire 1000 rounds:
680 of them will have velocities within +/- 1 SD of the mean velocity.
950 of them will have velocities within +/- 2 SD of the mean; and
997 of them will have velocities within +/- 3 SD of the mean.

That scales just as well to 100 rounds fired with 68, 95 and essentially 100 rounds falling within plus or minus 1, 2 and 3 SD of the mean.

In other words if my long range .308 load has and SD of 10 fps and an average velocity of 2600 fps, then I know that of 100 rounds fired:

68 rounds will have velocities between 2590 and 2610 fps, with 34 rounds between 2590 and 2600 fps and 34 rounds with velocities between 2600 and 2610 fps;

27 rounds will have velocities between 2580 and 2590 fps and 2610 and 2620 fps, again with about half in each range.

5 rounds will have velocities between 2570 and 2580 fps and 2620 and 2620 fps, once again with about half in each range.

This means all the rounds will fall between 2570 fps and 2630 fps, producing an extreme spread of 60. Or without all the numbers, 6 times the standard deviation.

In that regard, you're better off throwing out the ES on any sample sampler than 100 as you need a larger sample to finally get all the high and low outliers you need to get a reliable ES. Given that only 5 of 100 rounds will fall in the 3rd SD, and half of those will be high and low, you may need to fire more than 50 rounds if there 2 or 3 rounds fired in that 50 rounds that you'd expect to be in the 3rd SD are all in the high or low range of the 3rd SD. That can produce very misleading results and you'll now be using a 2nd SD value for the other end of the ES.

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***Now for a long range precision rifle load, I like an SD of 10 as it means all the rounds will be departing the muzzle at no more than +/- 30 fps of the average velocity. That equates to less vertical dispersion at long range as well as less horizontal dispersion when the wind is blowing.

If I am zeroed at 100 yards and shooting at a target at 800 yards a 168 gr SMK at 2,600 fps will theoretically drop 27.2 MOA and drift 7 MOA downwind in a 10 mph full value cross wind.

The low 3rd SD shot at a velocity of only 2,570 fps will drop 28 minutes and drift 7.1 minutes.

The high SD shot at a velocity of 2,630 fps will drop 26.5 minutes and drift 6.9 minutes.

That's an extreme spread of only .1 MOA in drift and 1.5 MOA in elevation (12.5" at 800 yards). More importantly, it's no more than .8 MOA from point of aim for any of the worst 5 out of 100 rounds fired (6.7" at 800 yards).

The highest velocity 2nd SD shot will drop 26.8 MOA and the lowest velocity 2nd SD shot will drop 27.7 MOA, meaning 95 out of 100 shots will theoretically be within .5 MOA of point of aim.

That small difference will be lost in the noise of dispersion due to the rifle, and wind and range estimation errors.

But you can't say the same thing about a load with an SD of 40, no matter how accurate it is as that SD of 40 equates to high and low velocities of 2480 fps and 2720 fps, producing 30.4 MOA and 24.5 MOA of drop respectively, a range of 5.9 MOA, which is 49 inches at 800 yards.

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The effects of high SD on accurate pistol and revolver shooting are just as bad, but for different reasons.

In a pistol or revolver, a low SD also means very consistent recoil and recoil affects point of impact, particularly in a light, short barrel revolver. If you're got an SD of 50 fps in a revolver, that means the velocity will vary by as much as 100 fps in the best 2/3 rds of the rounds fired. That effects recoil which effects point of impact, and while the trajectory different itself might not be that important out to 50 yards or so, the angle of departure differences due to differences in recoil will cause much larger groups.

Which is to say, that a high SD is a bad thing to have, even at ranges under 25 yards, if you're looking for small group sizes.

I do well in the snubby shoots on this site, and attention to SD is one of the reasons.

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Someone above mentioned that you need at least five 10 shot groups to create a reliable "average" ES.

Well...50 rounds isn't a bad same size but for most statistical purposes a sample size of 30 will give a very reliable SD and from that you can calculate a very reliable ES.

Consequently, I recommend firing three 10 shot groups and combining all the measured velocities into a single 30 shot sample to produce a reliable SD number.

For example, here are the SDs for three 10 shot groups fired in my 20" Model 92 in .357 Magnum with 125 gr XTPs:

17.54
27.93
14.47

The SD for all 30 shots is 20.98 (compared to 19.98 if you average the three SDs).

The high and low velocities were 2,213 and 2,120 fps, with an extreme spread of 93 fps, which suggests that 30 rounds is not sufficient to determine an accurate SD, which we would expect to be around 126 fps, based on the 21 fps SD.

The SD with a 30 shot sample works however as it gives a very reliable measure of central tendency and dispersion without having to shoot enough rounds to actually get the high and low +/- 3 standard deviation outliers you need to get a meaningful ES number.

That's basically why the military requires 30 round groups for ammo acceptance testing, and they repeat the test twice to ensure consistency in the lot.
 
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One reason the long 148gr bullet is so accurate is due to the
volume in the case when loaded.
Very little air space is left and some loads are close to 98% volume.

One reason some rifles do well with 4350 and 4831 powders, that fill up the case with the larger bullets.

Except for target loads, I try to have at least a 60% case volume in my loads, to have powder on or against the primer.
One reason I like Trail Boss for lead bullet loads.
 
Generally, my reloads with a good projectile and low ES & SD numbers are accurate. In many cases, my loads with high ES & SD numbers are not nearly as accurate. The results with these particular loads was a surprise.

Another trip to the range for some 25 yard testing will give me a better picture of how these loads will/should perform.

I've chased number in my youth. What I find, in general, group size is the final factor. If the load offers low numbers, great, but just not that important. I have had some great rifle loads, super accurate out to 300yds, show higher ES/SD than some other that just didn't group well. Barrel harmonics & good bullets in rifle loads are far bigger factors. Beyond 300, numbers matter but good bullets still matter more.
I used to shoot handgun met sil, so accuracy out to 220yds was pretty important. Again good bullets beat low ES/SD every time. My 44mag accuracy requirements were 8" @ 220yds, open sights. I actually could care less what the numbers were if my 8" Dan Wesson could hold that & good bullets were the primary factor.
 
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After today, I am inclined to agree with the gentlemen who state ES & SD do not matter at closer distances if you load with a good bullet. When I started reloading PPC loads in 1978, I did not have a chronograph. We loaded either 2.7g of Bullseye or 3.2g of Win 231 behind a 148g HBWC and the load shot well out to 50 yards. If I had owned a chronograph back then, I may have been chasing numbers.

I just arrived home from the range. A storm is blowing in and it was windier than a politician on election day, so I used a bag rest to steady my hands. Some say I should shoot at least 10 rounds to accurately assess group size, so I decided to shoot a 20 round group.


I fired 20 rounds of my 158g SnS Casting reload with 3.2g Win 231. Distance was 84' (27 yards) and I shot off the bag resting on a picnic table. The overall group was 4-1/2", which is not too bad for a inexpensive reload.
 

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I do it the other way around:I develop a load for accuracy(20 and 35yds) and then I get the chrono out.And yes,sometimes I get surprising numbers but then'I don't care as much because I know the load is accurate.My father always told me I was doing things backwards...but in this case,it works!
Qc
 
"That's basically why the military requires 30 round groups for ammo acceptance testing, and they repeat the test twice to ensure consistency in the lot. "

Not so for the U. S. Navy. Their small arms ammunition lot acceptance testing uses five 10-shot groups from two different test barrels at a 200 Yard range (indoor).

Numerous computer simulations have shown without doubt that a MINIMUM number of shot pairs of at least 225 is required to have high statistical confidence in the ES (and more groups are better). Now, what is a shot pair? It's this. For a number of shots (N), the shot pairs are (Nx(N-1))/2
So for 2 shots, there is one shot pair - (2x1)/2
For 5 shots, there are 10 shot pairs - (5x4)/2
For 10 shots, there are 45 shot pairs - (10x9)/2

For five 10-shot groups there are 5x45 = 225 shot pairs This will provide an average ES having a 95% confidence level as being within 5% of the true ES of a 10 shot group. And will require firing 50 rounds (5x10). Firing more than five groups would provide an even higher confidence level.

Let's take five-shot groups. Each group has 10 shot pairs. Therefore it would take an ES average of at least 23 such groups and (23x5=) 115 rounds to meet or exceed the statistical confidence of the average ES from firing five 10-shot groups.

Three shot groups are even worse. Three shot groups have only three shot pairs each. Therefore to get 225 shot pairs, you would need to fire about 75 groups, or 225 rounds (75x3) to get any high confidence in the ES.

One can carry this logic further and calculate an estimate of the circle of maximum dispersion (CMD), i.e., the diameter of a covering circle which would contain an infinite number of shots fired from the same gun using the same ammunition under identical conditions. As it turns out, firing a single group of 100 rounds to find the ES comes very close to providing an excellent estimate of that CMD. Except even one bad flyer can screw up the works

You really don't have to do that, as you can more simply estimate the CMD by determining the average ES of five 10-shot groups and multiplying it by a factor of very close to 1.28. Computer simulations actually provide a range of 1.26 to 1.30 as a CMD multiplication factor for an average ES for multiple 10-shot groups, and these factors have been verified by actual Navy test firings. I did those calculations. The CMD multiplier decreases for larger groups, and there is in fact a mathematical formula I have derived to provide the CMD multiplication factor vs. average group ES. But it's easier to just say that firing five 10-shot groups and averaging their ES will provide about all the precision anyone needs to know about ammunition grouping performance.

BTW, for the 30 shot groups earlier mentioned, that's not bad. A single 30 shot group will produce 435 shot pairs ((30x29)/2), well above the apparent minimum 225 shot pairs needed to get high statistical confidence. . And the CMD multiplication factor for a 30 shot group is 1.14. In other words, if one fires 30 rounds and gets a group ES of 2" at 200 yards, you can be fairly certain that the CMD of that ammunition fired at at the same distance would be within 5% of 2.28". But I feel that averaging the ES of five 10-shot groups is better, as the effects of a single flyer would be greatly minimized.
 
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