F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?

[ARM hawaii]

SA Hall was with out question the greatest legal instructor the Bureau ever had. Unfortunately, that was not the job he should have had. As the Unit Chief of FTU he was an even better performer. It was the debacle over the 1076 that undid his rein and brought undesired turns to several other careers.

As for the Springfields, they are outstanding performers for those who shoot. They require a higher level of awareness than the Glocks, Sigs, or the 1076. One must be diligent about cleaning. Yet, for those that do - the accuracy benefit makes up for it all. It is not for everyone or every Agent. It is issued as a special purpose pistol for individuals who receive special training.

I am not a fan of the TupperPistol which is the current issue, but it is hard to deny its success and reliability as a mass-issue tool. It is however, the only weapon ever issued that lacks any redeeming aesthetic quality.

I think the BU should issue 8 shot Model 27s with 3.5" barrels as its general issue handgun.

 

[cxm]

With the recent massive re-organization of what bureau is in which department is the FBI still protecting the AG? I seem to recall the Bureau went to Homeland Security... or did the Bureau stay in Justice?

V/r

Chuck

Originally posted by sigp220.45:
The Sig P220 in .45 was the issued pistol of the agents on the Attorney General's protection detail. I don't know if it is anymore.

 

[Fastbolt]

Well, I don't have the definitive answer for the original question ...

But I have some 'maybe-interesting' info which definitely falls within the realm of second-hand rumor. Maybe someone else participating in this thread can shed some further light on it ... and I'd appreciate hearing whether any of this stuff was in any way accurate ...

So ...

Listening to someone connected to the agency, who claimed some sort of knowledge of what was happening when the decision to adopt the 10mm cartridge was made ...

Supposedly somewhere within the FTU, some sort of internal review/report had just recently (prior to the Miami-Dade incident) been produced which was a review of handgun calibers suitable for use in the foreseeable future, and it had been determined that the .45 ACP was not going to be among the future of viable choices. Something to that effect.

Then, since nobody enjoys being wrong, obviously the .45 ACP couldn't suddenly be selected when it had just been deemed unsuitable, right?

New people at the helm later ... and what was old is now new again. Dunno. Not at all. Anybody else who has closer knowledge other than rumor have any thoughts on this?

Like I said, I have no idea is remotely connected to the actual events, but the fellow seemed rather bemused and disappointed with how things had happened when it came to the selection of a 'better' cartridge than the W-W 9mm 115gr STHP used at the time ... even though it wasn't the only caliber/ammunition used in the incident.

Maybe ... and I wouldn't be surprised ... it was merely another of those rumor-control stories which can take on a life of their own. More than likely the case.

Naturally, the 9mm continued to be used afterward, although in the heavier 147gr OSM load, as well as other heavier bullet weight 9mm loads over the years. The Federal 190gr JHP 'Fed-Lite' did eventually give way to the 180gr .40 S&W ... and most of the rest, it seems, is history.

I dislike rumor, though. Maybe sometimes entertaining if it's a harmless sort of info sharing, while sitting around enjoying a cigar ... since sometimes there is some small particle of fact hidden away within the folds of rumor ...

 

[TheGreatGonzo]

Originally posted by cxm:
With the recent massive re-organization of what bureau is in which department is the FBI still protecting the AG? I seem to recall the Bureau went to Homeland Security... or did the Bureau stay in Justice?

V/r

Chuck

Originally posted by sigp220.45:
The Sig P220 in .45 was the issued pistol of the agents on the Attorney General's protection detail. I don't know if it is anymore.

No, the FBI is still the primary investigative arm of the Department of Justice. And the Bureau is still tasked with providing protection for the Attorney General of the United States. That being said, I did not know there was ever a particular pistol issued to that detail. I always assumed (shame on me) they carried whatever Bu issued or approved pistol they normally carried. Go figure.
Gonzo

 

[gunfan]

The 10mm is a superior pistol in combat, period. It can, and does, outperform the .45 ACP in every aspect, every time. Get over it. The 10mm is in the middle of a revival. Colt's Delta Elite is coming back with a bull barrel, and Wilson Combat is building both their CQB and "Hunter" models in the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge.

Oh, its 'dead' all right. (If you call being produced by a minimum of 7 handgun manufacturers, dead.)

Scott

 

[dmc8163]

Fastbolt,
This forum contains a wealth of accurate information concerning the Model 1076. Briefly, the 10 mm came out only slightly ahead of the .45 in FTUs ammunition protocol testing, very slightly. But, in his original mandate the Director clearly instructed the FTU to recommend to him the BEST performing ammunition. Not the "almost" best. Accordingly the first recommendation to the Director was that the results of the ammunition testing protocol slightly favored the 10 mm. The second point made in the recommendation to the Director was that the .45 had been around for roughly 100 years and had reached the zenith of its development as a law enforcement cartridge. The 10 mm on the other hand was relatively new and its potential for significant positive development as a law enforcement cartridge. The decision between the 10 mm and the .45 was so close that FTU would have been quite willing to live with whatever ammunition the Director selected. But note, THE DIRECTOR selected the 10 mm. Not FTU or anyone in between. And the fact is that even had the Director selected .45 ammunition there was NO pistol on the market that met the Bureau's requirements. No single pistol had all the features that FTU demanded. A new pistol would have to be designed regardless of what caliber was selected.

ARM Hawaii,
Well said. John Hall set the standard for class act and a gentleman. A man of honor who did the right thing for the Bureau on each and every occasion with little or no regard for the consequences to himself. Never impatient, never impolite, never condescending and always there to devote his time and attention to your needs. We should all look to him for inspiration. I certainly did.

 

[TheGreatGonzo]

Originally posted by dmc8163:
Well said. John Hall set the standard for class act and a gentleman. A man of honor who did the right thing for the Bureau on each and every occasion with little or no regard for the consequences to himself. Never impatient, never impolite, never condescending and always there to devote his time and attention to your needs. We should all look to him for inspiration. I certainly did.

Amen! You could call him anytime for a straight answer and he never forgot a trainee. Heck of a musician, too. I tapped many a toe listening to him and the NA's in Crossroads.

 

[Fastbolt]

The 10mm is a superior pistol in combat, period.

Opinion & conclusion. Reasoning upon which it's based?

It can, and does, outperform the .45 ACP in every aspect, every time.

Well, if that were the case, and if whatever factors and circumstances were involved in making that determination were the primary reason to select a service cartridge ... then you'd think we'd be seeing more of it in LE & military, usage, wouldn't you?

There's no reason for 10mm enthusiasts to find it unpleasant or insulting that seemingly a number of folks who shoot semiauto pistols seem to find the felt recoil, muzzle blast and overall controllability of a 'full-power' 10mm load to be a bit on the undesired end of things.

I'll grant that the 10mm is seemingly enjoying some apparent renewed interest among the firearms makers, and not just in a revolver platforms which was primarily intended for hunting enthusiasts. It's the major ammunition makers who need to come back into the fold and offer some upgraded defensive ammunition for the new (and old) platforms. I wouldn't be surprised to find some of the smaller ammunition makers enjoying this resurgence.

I've qualified a handful of CCW folks who carried 10mm pistols, including G20's, a couple of Colt models and S&W 1006 pistols. Virtually without exception these folks all exhibited somewhat slower recoil recovery and recoil management when observed alongside everyone else at the same time, shooting all manner of other cartridges. If that reflects the 'average' lawful CCW person, then wouldn't it be prudent to consider that maybe some folks might ... just might ... be better served with a cartridge which allowed them something of an advantage in these potentially critical issues.

When you consider that CCW folks have generally gone to the trouble to buy their own firearms, equipment and ammunition ... compared to most LE who have it issued to them ... then I'd offer that it might be a valid concern to adopt a defensive service caliber, or a selection of calibers, which might prove better suited to the wide range of folks who enter LE work.

Not everyone wants a 'heavy caliber' sidearm, nor is everyone likely to be able to be qualified with one.

While felt recoil may not be a problem when it comes to target shooting or performing a controlled pair or 'triple' shot string on a static range ... or during a pleasant afternoon at the local outdoor shooting venue ... sometimes controllability, recovery and even safe handling issues may arise when someone is forced to complete a dynamic, timed course of fire which can involve conditions including, movement, shooting while moving, shooting weak-handed, engaging multiple targets in reduced light conditions which require judgment for Shoot/No-Shoot decisions, etc., etc..

How many folks do you know who find shooting 10mm pistols to offer them an advantage when competing in IDPA or other competitive venues? If the felt recoil and controllability wasn't an issue, what else would mitigate against it being used with some frequency in events where speed, controllability & accuracy were useful, even if only in winning against time & paper?

Hey, I have nothing against the caliber. I may pick up one of the new Colts at some point. I've always thought that if Colt improved their platform compared to their previous offering, or S&W or Ruger would introduce a robust defensive-type pistol model chambered in the 10mm, that I'd want to get one.

It wouldn't necessarily replace my many other defensive weapons, though. I just happen to think the 10mm was an interesting cartridge to have been developed in American handgun history.

I also liked the .41 Magnum, for that matter.

That didn't remain considered a viable LE/defensive cartridge for very many years,however, either. Still a good cartridge, though.

 

[Fastbolt]

Thank you dmc8163. I appreciate your reply.

The second point made in the recommendation to the Director was that the .45 had been around for roughly 100 years and had reached the zenith of its development as a law enforcement cartridge. The 10 mm on the other hand was relatively new and its potential for significant positive development as a law enforcement cartridge.

I can also see how this part, in particular, could end up being misunderstood, taken out of context and eventually distorted beyond recognition by our typical rumor control phenomena.

Seen it happen too many times trying to track down the source of something.

The decision between the 10mm and the .45 was so close that FTU would have been quite willing to live with whatever ammunition the Director selected.

Ditto, having BTDT. You give a perfectly reasonable answer to a question from upstairs, especially expressing how either of a couple of answers would be perfectly acceptable and serve the needs of everyone. The admin makes a good decision, and then suddenly you start hearing someone complaining about the decision, and how it was your decision?!? Sigh ... Happened to me recently.

I really won't miss some of the things from this job when I retire.

Thanks again.

Best regards.

 

[SPEEDGUNNER]

Interestingly, as this thread makes it topical, there is an Auto Ordnance 10mm conversion kit for the 1911 for sale on another forum. Isn't the 10mm cartridge by its nature too powerful for the standard government model frame? Isn't the Delta Elite a bit beefier? Just curious, no dog in the hunt on this one...

 

[gunfan]

Originally posted by SPEEDGUNNER:
Interestingly, as this thread makes it topical, there is an Auto Ordnance 10mm conversion kit for the 1911 for sale on another forum. Isn't the 10mm cartridge by its nature too powerful for the standard government model frame? Isn't the Delta Elite a bit beefier? Just curious, no dog in the hunt on this one...

Not at all. A properly balanced spring arrangement cured the original problems associated with the Delta Elite. This alteration along with a new "bull" barrel (bushingless) arrangement will have the new 2008 Delta Elites humming along with the hot ammunition for a long, long time. Incidentally, the .38 Super has the same peak pressures as the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge (37,500 psi.) I have seen plenty of them running with full power ammunition for many years.

With Colt, Dan Wesson, Kimber, Fusion Arms, Wilson Combat and STI building 1911-based pistols running the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge for many thousands of rounds. A well-made 1911-pattern pistol of almost any stripe can handle the 10mm.

Scott

 

[Hot Toddy]

Hey Folks!
Not to flame or start a peeing contest, however I would respectfully disagree with Fastbolt.
I have shot the 10mm for a few years and like any other caliber, practice, patience and shooting will overcome slow reflexes and recovery times.
When I qualified with a SOT team a few years back, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with the Glock I was forced to shoot because of the rangemasters preference. I was told to stick to being a Medic.
However we were allowed to shoot and carry a "Backup" gun.
Not only did I improve my times and accuracy, but I was in the top 2 shooters of the team. This was with a Colt Double Eagle in 10mm.
The rangemaster informed me that I need to carry the Colt and skip the Glocks.
Also nto to stand by him if I am shooting a Glock! LOL!!
There is simply no substitute for practice and knowing you carry weapon.
With that being said, I agree that the 10mm is not a beginners caliber with any stretch of the imagination.
I can only imagine what it is like to train the great masses in CCW and Fastbolt has my greatest respect and honor.
Just my 2 cents. Take care and God Bless...HT

 

[Old Navy]

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
Well, if that were the case, and if whatever factors and circumstances were involved in making that determination were the primary reason to select a service cartridge ... then you'd think we'd be seeing more of it in LE & military, usage, wouldn't you?

Seems you never been involved in even low level politics, office or government. If that statement were true, we would not have had the M16 problems, not have went to a P92 as standard side arm, but we needed to renew the lease on a USAF base in Italy, and I hate to think of the number of different aircraft the US either took or passed up due to politics.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:There's no reason for 10mm enthusiasts to find it unpleasant or insulting that seemingly a number of folks who shoot semiauto pistols seem to find the felt recoil, muzzle blast and overall controllability of a 'full-power' 10mm load to be a bit on the undesired end of things.

True, and 10mm is my choise after many years a 45ACP man. I like the flat trejectory unavailable in a 180G plus 45ACP round.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
I'll grant that the 10mm is seemingly enjoying some apparent renewed interest among the firearms makers, and not just in a revolver platforms which was primarily intended for hunting enthusiasts. It's the major ammunition makers who need to come back into the fold and offer some upgraded defensive ammunition for the new (and old) platforms. I wouldn't be surprised to find some of the smaller ammunition makers enjoying this resurgence.

True enough I guess, but it is some what like saying which came first the chicken or the egg. Which needs to come first gun or ammo.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
I've qualified a handful of CCW folks who carried 10mm pistols, including G20's, a couple of Colt models and S&W 1006 pistols. Virtually without exception these folks all exhibited somewhat slower recoil recovery and recoil management when observed alongside everyone else at the same time, shooting all manner of other cartridges. If that reflects the 'average' lawful CCW person, then wouldn't it be prudent to consider that maybe some folks might ... just might ... be better served with a cartridge which allowed them something of an advantage in these potentially critical issues.

That just goes back to traning and firing the gun enough, most CCW civilians don't just because of the cost of ammo.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
When you consider that CCW folks have generally gone to the trouble to buy their own firearms, equipment and ammunition ... compared to most LE who have it issued to them ... then I'd offer that it might be a valid concern to adopt a defensive service caliber, or a selection of calibers, which might prove better suited to the wide range of folks who enter LE work.

That does sound kind of silly to me, unless I am misreading, that a person should only by what LEO use.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
Not everyone wants a 'heavy caliber' sidearm, nor is everyone likely to be able to be qualified with one.

That is true, but I have seen a lot of LEO's in years past that were helped or fudged to get them through the shooting section of the LEO course

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
While felt recoil may not be a problem when it comes to target shooting or performing a controlled pair or 'triple' shot string on a static range ... or during a pleasant afternoon at the local outdoor shooting venue ... sometimes controllability, recovery and even safe handling issues may arise when someone is forced to complete a dynamic, timed course of fire which can involve conditions including, movement, shooting while moving, shooting weak-handed, engaging multiple targets in reduced light conditions which require judgment for Shoot/No-Shoot decisions, etc., etc..

Again most civilian agencies do not do enough arms training. That is why LEO's will sometimes fire 40 or 50 rounds or more at a person and only have a couple of hits if any.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
How many folks do you know who find shooting 10mm pistols to offer them an advantage when competing in IDPA or other competitive venues? If the felt recoil and controllability wasn't an issue, what else would mitigate against it being used with some frequency in events where speed, controllability & accuracy were useful, even if only in winning against time & paper?

People who shoot those courses generally have hand loaded lighter loads to help control recoil, be it 9mm, 38 Super, 45ACP or 10mm caliber.

Originally posted by Fastbolt:
Hey, I have nothing against the caliber. I may pick up one of the new Colts at some point. I've always thought that if Colt improved their platform compared to their previous offering, or S&W or Ruger would introduce a robust defensive-type pistol model chambered in the 10mm, that I'd want to get one.

It wouldn't necessarily replace my many other defensive weapons, though. I just happen to think the 10mm was an interesting cartridge to have been developed in American handgun history.

I also liked the .41 Magnum, for that matter.

That didn't remain considered a viable LE/defensive cartridge for very many years,however, either. Still a good cartridge, though.

Don't BS us BS'ers

PS: The 41 revolver died early death due to rise of high compasity autoloading pistols and IMHO the rush to have officers make up defiencies of accuracy by high volume of fire. I mean the LEO went from carrying 18 rounds on average to 40 to 60 rounds in just 3 magazines.

 

[dmc8163]

Fastbolt,

You have NO idea how much you will enjoy retirement and how little you will miss “the job.” Honestly.

Back to the 10 mm. I agree with Hot Toddy. When the 1076 was tested at Quantico with the original Norma ammunition even I joined the chorus that opined that the round was absolutely not suitable as a general issue service round. “Hand cannon” was the thought that raced through my mind the first time I fired a 1076 and Norma ammunition. If that is what you mean by a "full power" 10 mm round I would agree. But the point FTU (i.e., John Hall) was making in the recommendation that the 10 mm was in its infancy and had dramatic possibilities for improvement. Instead the entire effort to advance the goal of increased protection of law enforcement officers (and the public) through better firepower was still born for no justifiable reason.

If, for example, the FBI had not unilaterally destroyed the S&W Model 1076 in the eyes of the shooting public stigmatizing the 10 mm for all time where do you suppose the 10 mm round might be at present after 25 years of development?

I submit that in all likelihood the 10 mm would have continued to develop into the standard that the .45 now occupies. I also believe that the .40 would have sprung from the development of the 10 mm and become the standard to replace the 9 mm (as it has now).

As for combat shooting the Model 1076 I have fired 6,500 rounds during qualifying and training runs on law enforcement ranges (’91; ’93-’98). This included CQB, moving targets, night shooting, etc. etc. Prior to the 1076 I fired a revolver and was a certified firearm’s instructor. I never fired better scores or had more confidence in my abilities than when I carried and fired my 1076 (s). And I don’t believe you will any LE officer that carried a 1076 on duty that will say otherwise. There was nothing wrong with the 1076 that could not be fixed through minor engineering changes, training and gun maintenance.

Zounds! Shades of the AR-15/M-16!

After my 1076 was forcibly taken from me by evildoers I was issued a Glock. Although I carried, practiced and qualified for 6 years with both a 22 and a 23 I never achieved the success I had with the 1076 and I absolutely never felt comfortable with carrying the pistol on the street.

Having taken a CCW class post retirement I see your point about the students. Most of the students in the class I took couldn’t hit the silhouette in a target at the 7 yard line with a 9 mm. But we are talking law enforcement and military use here, not civilian. (By the way, bless you for teaching the CCW classes – patience of a Saint)


As for using less powerful handguns for competition – sure, why not go with the leastest you can get away with. They would shoot .22s if you let them. Just look at the loads in cowboy action shooting.

It is my hope that the 10 mm gains more than nominal interest from a devoted but small core of enthusiasts. It has great potential if given the chance.

But I will never, ever forget John Hall’s warnings on handguns in law enforcement. To paraphrase, if you are going to carry a 9mm on the job it’s a good thing you can load it up with 15 or 16 rounds because you are going to need every one of them to stop the bad guy even if you hit him. [My apologies to John if I have butchered his eloquent admonition]

 

[Fastbolt]

I don't see that we really disagree on the idea that familiarization, consistent training and skills development can mitigate the increased felt recoil of the original full-power 10mm cartridge Hot Toddy.

Maybe I should have phrased my comments more carefully.

I think the 10mm requires more training than the average owner/user might be willing to invest in when it comes to their time, focus and perhaps money. We agree that the 10mm likely isn't any body's idea of a 'beginners' caliber, and I just sort of extend that definition to encompass the 'casual' owner or user who only shoots enough to demonstrate minimally 'acceptable' skill levels when required to do so on some basic course-of-fire ... but doesn't do much, if any, practice the rest of the time.

How about the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum?

These revolver cartridges have both seen a fair bit of LE and non-LE defensive carry throughout the years. Perhaps a significant amount of that usage has involved practice and qualification with a standard pressure or +P .38 Spl in the case of the .357 Magnum, and a .44 Special (or reduced Magnum load) in the case of the .44 Magnum ... but then the owners/users may choose to actually carry and depend on the full-power Magnum loads. I think perhaps some of them do themselves a disservice by not practicing with their chosen Magnum load at least sufficiently enough to have the earned confidence that they can perform as well on a qualification course-of-fire with the Magnum load as with the reduced load.

At a certain point in my career I realized I needed to start practicing and qualifying with full-power loads in both of those revolver calibers. Of course, I can't remember the last time I carried a .44 Magnum inside a city/suburban area, but I still run it through the standard qualification courses-of-fire upon occasion, just to remain current, and I use Magnum ammunition with bullet weights of 240 & 315gr JHP when I do.

Both of these excellent revolver cartridges have served their owners/users well over the years, but it might not be unfair to say that not all of those folks may have really developed their skills and abilities to the point where they were up to the task of being able to shoot the full-power loads as well as the reduced-power loads, especially when things became fuzzy.

I just include some of the 10mm owners with whom I've worked in that general grouping of "not as skilled as they could be in order to effectively use the cartridge". Why do a good number of IDPA folks use the 9mm, do you think? Or a standard pressure .45 ACP if they prefer .45 ACP, instead of +P?

Everyone's got to find their own level, and I think the harder recoiling calibers tend to make a number of folks shy away from them to lesser recoiling calibers. That's fine. I think, however, that the folks who are just handed a piece of safety equipment ... in this case a pistol ... might not have the interest and motivation to ever do as well with a harder recoiling caliber, especially if they aren't gun enthusiasts. When it comes to equipment like handguns, intended to serve a 'bell curve' segment of users, sometimes the equipment most easily used by the greatest number of folks may tend to be on the lesser recoiling, more easily controlled range of the common calibers. The cost of training from an agency perspective isn't exactly insignificant, you know.

BTW, I know an older gentleman (compared to me, and I'm in my mid-fifties

) who owns, qualifies with and carries a pair of Colt Double Eagles for his CCW. Does respectably well with them, too.

I think the newest Colt 10mm is an interesting pistol. About time. I'm hoping it does well enough that Colt keeps it in the lineup this time, and that the other company's models enjoy some increased sales, as well.

Now it's time for the major ammunition companies to get it in gear and offer greater quantities of 10mm ammunition, including target, hunting and personal defense loadings.

Of course, I also think the .38 Super has languished long enough, too.

Best regards. Enjoy that 10mm Colt for many year to come.

 

[Old Navy]

I still think it was a mistake to go to spray and pray training or attitudes. The 357 would be better in most cases then any 9mm or 40 cal for sure, but politics will be politics.

The 9mm in 1911 frame is probably about the best combo that you could come up with for IDPA or other competitive venues, very low recoil, yet as accurate or maybe more so then the 45ACP.

The 38Super would make a far better round then, IMHO, any 9mm, 40 cal, 45ACP, or 10mm for that matter for lots of reasons. Basically the 38Super power is about that of the 357 magnum and the 10mm was more like the 41 magnum. Wow who would think it would be any other way. Then enter politic's and political correctness and everthing goes to hell in a handbasket.

I thought long and hard about going 38 super instead of 10mm, but 10mm won out for several reasons. Main reasons were availability of guns chambered for those calibers, ease of buying ammo, and finally what handloading could do with the round.

I still may buy 38 super 1911 next year, but not for CCW. I don't like a 1911 for CCW unless I'm using ball ammo due to gun designed for ball ammo. However WW JHPST's seem to do real well in 1911's, and is only ammo I use in my CS45.

 

[Fastbolt]

Howdy Old Navy.

The first comment you quoted was made by me with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek. Politics and Police work both start with a "P".

Training. Costs money and time. Then there's that whole 'interest & motivation' thing. Not everyone has all of them. More's the pity.

The cost of ammunition and range time isn't inconsiderable nowadays. I certainly wouldn't be able to shoot as much as I do if I wasn't an instructor. The primary reason I applied to join the training unit in the first place was so I could shoot & train more ... and not spend my own money. Okay, getting paid to do it didn't (and still doesn't) hurt, either.

I have no illusions that my shooting frequency will be a lot less once I retire and no longer have access to the agency's ammunition inventory and range, as well. Of course, I'll have significantly fewer guns pointed in my direction, too.

Don't BS us BS'ers

Hey, I really DO like the 10mm as a cartridge. I just lost some interest Ruger decided to change calibers on their pending P90 platform from 10mm to .45 ACP, and only released a P91 in .40 S&W, and then the S&W 10XX platform was dropped.

I knew a number of guys who used to carry .41 & .44 Magnum revolvers as service revolvers, FWIW.

I handled and fired a G20 when they were just being imported into the US, in the late summer of '90, I think it was. Interesting gun. Decently controllable even with the Norma ammunition. Offered one by the Glock rep for $315 w/3 magazines. I was just too wrapped up in my .45's (and still grudgingly accepting the 9mm) at that time. Besides, the Glock still gave me that 'Crosman pellet gun' feeling back then.

I enjoy teaching the CCW classes, for the most part. Teaching cops can have its rewards, but a significant number of them are only at the range because they're required to be there. We give them the guns, the ammunition, the targets, access to a range and the instructors to help them develop their skills ... and yet a disappointing number of them only come when they're required to be there. Even then, there's always that small number that fail to show up until threatened with disciplinary action, too. I try to interest folks in coming down on their own time for some extra practice ... all they have to spend is their time ... but not with a lot of success.

The CCW folks, on the hand, have to spend hard-earned money to get there, have taken time out of their own schedules and have bought their own guns, holsters and cleaning equipment. They generally seem to appreciate someone showing up and helping them complete their classroom training & range qualification.

I could wish more of them showed up having familiarized themselves with their chosen weapons and carry methods before the class, though.

Then, there's the folks who show up with a pistol and ONE magazine. Slows things down for everyone.

Or, the folks who show up with "mystery" ammunition and magazines, sometimes neither of which will complete a string of fire without problems, let alone the whole course of fire. I no longer let them see me shake my head when I ask about the ammunition & magazines and hear some variation of, "But I didn't want to bring my GOOD magazines and ammunition down to the range."

There's a reason we've had to start imposing more rules and conditions for CCW ranges over the years.

All in all, though, I do enjoy my time with the folks in the CCW classes. If nothing else, it's refreshing to discuss firearms safety and the laws governing the use of deadly force with folks who aren't impressed with themselves because of the fact they carry a badge. I'll be one of them, soon enough.

I'm really looking forward to retirement dmc8163. All my retired friends keep reminding me to do it as soon as possible, but I still have some things to arrange ... for myself and my family ... in order to feel relaxed and comfortable about it. I could leave tomorrow if someone really annoyed me (which is great feeling by itself), and do fairly well enough, but I'd rather leave on my own terms after lining up everything the way I'd like it to be before walking out.

It is my hope that the 10 mm gains more than nominal interest from a devoted but small core of enthusiasts. It has great potential if given the chance.

We can only hope. I wouldn't hold my breath about it ever becoming a mainstream LE cartridge ... (consider all of the 'non-gun enthusiasts' and folks of diminutive stature that are entering the LE field in increasing numbers) ... but I could see it enjoy a reawakening among non-LE users if the ammunition & firearms folks decide there's an increasing interest in the commercial market.

BTW Old Navy, the only reason I made the comment about the ammunition manufacturers needing to devote some attention to the 10mm is that I've repeatedly heard from at least 3 of the major gun companies, during phone conversations and in some armorer classes, that they monitor the production and sales of commercial ammunition when deciding how to manage their firearms production ... and they've all kept saying that commercial sales of ammunition was always lacking when it came to the interest displayed by the commercial market in the 10mm. In other words, they really only seemed to consider the sale of loaded ammunition, and not components (reloading), or, apparently, the success of smaller makers of ammunition for some of the 'niche' shooters.

If both the ammunition and firearms companies prescribed to the 'If you build it, they will come' philosophy regarding the 10mm, things might get really interesting in the near future.

Take care guys.

Best regards.
fb

 

[Old Navy]

Having retired a number of years ago (about 15) one very important thing to remenber is do your best to make them pay the retirement for a long time. In doing that there is a real sense of having achieved something and got back at the system. So don't wait too long, just remember the guy that said life begins at 50 was a lying SOB who didn't know what he was talking about.

 

[dmc8163]

KMA must be a wonderful feeling Fastbolt. But I never got a chance to find out. I was happily out the door the day of my eligibility. And I was getting cussed out by my brethren who weren't able to go with me. And wouldn't you know it, six moths later I get a call from *** telling me to turn in my gun and badge or they would open upna criminal case on me. After I calmly and patiently responded that I did turn them in and had the paperwork to prove it they admitted that they must be lost because the gun never reached the gun folks. LOL I love it.
It never ends.

happy Little Camper in NC

 

[Hot Toddy]

Hey Folks!
Thanks for the comment Fastbolt. One of the many things about this forum I enjoy is being able to disagree and discuss a point like adults and learn in the process.

However I just have one question even though this is the S&W forum, What is this about a "New" Colt in 10mm? Pictures, specifics, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless...HT