F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?

Originally posted by Outrider:
Your department was running out of 10mm ammo?

As for me, I'd have let others get what they wanted -- and just bought myself some more ammo for my 1006...
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And you're going to buy this ammo where-in lots of 100,000 rounds or better? At a price that fits within the budget? If no one wants to supply ammo in the quantities necessary for training and practice at a price you can afford, the round is useless. We were able to keep it in service as long as we did by long term contracts orignially piggy-backed on federal contracts for millions of rounds. When they ceased, so did the manufacturers interest.

Bluntly, we originally adopted the 10mm for exactly the same reasons as the FBI/Virginia State Police: politics. Also the my gun/ammo is bigger than yours feeling that the guys making the decision got.

Whatever advantage you may feel the 10mm might have is negated when you can't train sufficiently to properly utilize the weapons system. Much better to have a caliber/weapons system that the troops can extensively train with.
 
W.R.,

I was just messing with you and being needlessly facetious...

I understand all your points -- fully -- although I would prefer to carry the 1006 myself over just about anything else -- as a private citizen.

I do realize, however, I might feel differently if I had to supply all my practice and duty ammo.
 
Would the "Miami Shootout" would have been a mere dusty footnote if the FBI agents at least had Mini-14s and properly plated vests -- along with decent tactics -- to match the bad guys?

The answer wasn't a switch to 10mm -- although I strongly favor the round.

It was being smart -- and doing things right. The agents should have had ARs -- and recognized that they were dealing with skilled gunmen who evidently planned to go out in a blaze of infamy.

By the way, about that same time, the .45 was considered a "man-killer" by many prosecutors -- and carried a stigma as such. (Not my words, but a prevailing delusion at the time.)

The round was also being abandoned by the U.S. military about that same time.

The whole affair was a shameful, nasty mess -- where good people died or were maimed needlessly.

(If you'll recall the details, at least one agent lost his pistol after a collision. Any way you dissect it, for the FBI, it was Murphy's Law -- cubed...)
 
I would like to take the time to thank everyone who contributed to my thread. I realy learned alot.
 
Awesome thread. I love reading from the guys and gals who served in the FBI and learning all of the back room politics and deals that have been made regarding agency issued handguns. Thanks.:cool:
 
This sounds ODDLY familiar...

Here's an outtake from the above article. Such copyrighted material is permited to be reproduced in small outtakes as direct, attributed quotes...

But it pretty well sums up what everybody thought.

**********************************************************************************

Here goes:

...We contacted several agents familiar with the pistol selection and, after promising them anonymity, they agreed to comment:

"'When John Hall was in charge of the 10mm program, he told me, 'I love the .45, I carry a .45, but I couldn't go before Congress and ask for $3.5 million for a .45 when the army had just spent millions to replace the .45.' So we came up with a cartridge that ballistically was identical to it -- the downloaded 10mm," an FBI source said.

"The FBI has been conducting an ongoing study on ballistics since Miami [the 1986 massacre in which two agents died in a bloody gunfight with bank robbers]. They found the .45 is a pretty good round. In a tradeoff between controllability and knockdown power, the .45 is it. Confidence level is also a part of it [the decision to adopt the caliber]," said another informed source.

There! The words no one wants to admit officially: "knockdown power." You know that was the reason for the .45 specification; I know that; and surely the FBI knows that. But they aren't about to admit it. The assorted liberals in the alphabet soup-- HCI, ACLU, NAACP -- would have a field day with such an admission. You can just imagine the headlines: "FBI Shoots To Kill," "FBI Picks Deadliest Weapon."

**********************************************************************************

Apparently, some in a liberal Congress at the time wanted the 9mm because it was a "less-lethal" round....

Gee, nobody's ever put that sharp a point on it before. But it's clear some want the 9mm PRECISELY because the 9mm IS less deadly...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

And don't forget that Ronald Reagan had been shot just a mere 7 weeks after taking office just a few years earlier.

Also, recall that Reagan's support for gun rights got a LOT spongier after that incident...

As much as I hate to say it, the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabby Giffords also might have had a far, far, far worse outcome if she'd been hit on the same bullet path with a .45, a .357, a 10mm or a .40 -- as opposed to a 9mm.
 
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Plus, one of the reasons the FBI liked the 10mm is the ability to load it up or load it down.

Moreover, it had the potential to penetrate deeper -- while expanding to a desirable mushroom -- than a .45 or a 9mm. (Of course, that depends on the loading. One problem with full metal jacketed 9mms is their tendency to whizz straight through targets...So penetration isn't the only factor.)

Even the attentuated 10mm round the FBI "labs" were testing would have reached the heart of one suspect in the "Miami Massacre".

Still, what the FBI needed in that -- and any similar situation -- was the right rifle with the right load -- with a good 10mm as a BACKUP -- not a PRIMARY -- weapon.

Pistols are great -- but, people, there's a REASON THEY'RE CALLED "SIDEARMS"....

Pistols are BACKUP WEAPONRY....
 
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Not at all. A properly balanced spring arrangement cured the original problems associated with the Delta Elite. This alteration along with a new "bull" barrel (bushingless) arrangement will have the new 2008 Delta Elites humming along with the hot ammunition for a long, long time. Incidentally, the .38 Super has the same peak pressures as the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge (37,500 psi.) I have seen plenty of them running with full power ammunition for many years.

With Colt, Dan Wesson, Kimber, Fusion Arms, Wilson Combat and STI building 1911-based pistols running the 10mm Auto Pistol Cartridge for many thousands of rounds. A well-made 1911-pattern pistol of almost any stripe can handle the 10mm.

Scott
Not true, Colt in their infinite wisdom once again chose to not have a fully supported chamber. Underwood ammunition lists right on its boxes "Not safe for use in Delta Elites"
 
Lots of good information in this thread. Now that I'm retired, I can offer some comments...

I was a firearms instructor at the time the 1076 rollout in the field offices began in earnest after 1991. New Agents at Quantico began receiving them first. The NYO - largest field office and at the bottom of the list to receive anything new - didn't get 1076s for issue until 1992. The transition school from revolver to 1076 for Agents started at 5 days, and was soon reduced to 4 days. They shot a lot of rounds during that week, well over 1000 rounds per gun. The 1076 was reliable, and with the issue 180/950 load, not difficult to shoot, and grouped well.

Having said that, it wasn't without its detractors. For starters, it was far heavier and bulkier to carry than the issue S&W 10-5 or 13-3. Considering the majority of agents worked in business attire, and investigating white collar crime and counter-intelligence, the added size and weight were not appreciated with that sector.

The POI of the issue guns was lower than what was common with the prior issue revolvers or pistols (S&W 10-5, 13-3, 459, SIG P226). The 1076 was zero @ 25yards using a center hold, with half the rounds above and below the POA. Most Agents could not tell the difference on the Q target, but many instructors - required to shoot the Bullseye Course for qualification - did not like this. They sent their guns back to the Quantico Gun Vault for sight adjustment, to be told that the guns were zero. Personally, I don't like rounds impacting below my line of sight at distance.

The magazines had some issues with the top round sliding out when carried in the issue magazine pouch - you would draw the 9rd magazine for a reload and there would be 8 rounds in the mag, and a single round laying in the bottom of the magazine pouch. There was at least one magazine modification by S&W to try and prevent this.

We still used Hoppes 9 back then, and this caused problems with 1076 due to the inevitable improper cleaning methods. I say "inevitable" because most LEOs - including Agents - are not "gun people", and m any have little or no prior experience or interest in firearms. The weapon is a tool, and there are a lot of other tools, rules and fools to be concerned about. Using copious amounts of solvent is one aspect of that situation. While never a good idea on any handgun, if done to the revolver, it rarely prevented it from firing even if the action got sluggish. In the 1076, Hoppes 9 accumulated in the FP channel, mixed with brass shavings and carbon fouling, and on enough occasions prevented free movement of the FP and caused misfires. I saw one FP that was stuck poking through breech face after firing and could not be moved. Examination of the FP channel indicated a horror show of gunked up fouling and Hoppes 9. This was not a rare occurrence, as there was no relief hole in the slide to blow out such matter.

Finally, there was considerable debate amongst firearms instructors over the selection of both the cartridge and the 1076. And it was not just .45 vs 10mm. The 9mm was favored by many experienced instructors, including my old partner (20 years my senior), who had been an original SWAT operator and later PFI in another field office. He and others favored a high-capacity lightweight pistol in 9mm, with improved ammunition, such as the 147 grain JHP.

The SIG P226 was already issued to some Special Operations Agents, and was authorized as a POW in 1987. In fact, the P226 was just fine by them, as it had a better trigger action than the S&W pistols, was more accurate, and had what was considered the better decocking device. The argument for the 9mm boiled down to the fact that actual hits in gun fights are lower than qualification scores, and having more rounds gives the Agent more chances to make a hit without reloading. The lighter recoiling 9mm also made hitting easier for most Agents. With more effective penetrating ammunition (eg. 147 gr JHP), many instructors thought this was the best solution.

Obviously, the big-bore camp eventually won out. The resulting 1076 was coyly referred to as a "SIG & Wesson" , as it was supposed to be a blend of the characteristics of both guns. When the S&W 645 and SIG P220 were authorized as POWs in 1988, I bought the former and was very pleased with it and carried it for years very successfully. I worked Violent Crimes and Drug Cartels so I didn't mind the weight and size. I had my own POW 1076 in 1989, but saw no advantage to my 645.

I won't rehash the whole 1076 debacle, but will say all the guns had to be returned in 1993. The dilemma of what to arm the Agents with was solved by purchasing thousands of SIG P228 9mm guns off the existing DEA contract. After the 1076 was "re-worked" at the S&W Performance Center. Agents had the option of receiving a 1076 back, with 7 new magazines and a log book, all in a Performance Center blue box. Less than 10% of those who turned in a 1076, asked to have it back.

While I personally was not a fan of the P228, nearly all of the Agents loved it. It was lighter, more compact, had more magazine capacity, fit more hands better, and had better accuracy from the practical standpoint. The difference in "power" was not noticed in the reality of actually shootings. The issue load was the Speer 147 GDHP. More than any other handgun, when down the road all the P228s had to be turned in for a Glock, there were many long faces.

Re "too much recoil" for Agents with the 10mm. The full house 170 grain Norma was never issued. FTU Unit Chief John Hall and crew fired it in his Colt Delta Elite when they were examining the 10mm and decided quickly it was a ridiculous choice for a LE load. The 180/950 was the issue for many moons, until a 190/950 load which performed better in the MP-10 was adopted. I remember the tiniest female Agent I had ever met coming to the range for quarterly qualification in 1991. She had just graduated from the Academy and because her hands were so small, she was issued a 1086 DAO pistol, with the skinny grip option, in order to reach the trigger. The pistol seemed to be about half the size of her. Yet, she was a good shot, the 10mm recoil didn't faze her, and after the guns were recalled wished she could have it back. No luck.

Those that retained the 1076 viewed it as some mystical light saber, slayer of dragons. I think that last one that I pried out of an Agent's hands was in 2007. The entire day at the range he swore at the Bureau and "its cheap plastic Glock". His negative attitude - over a gun he didn't pay for and was issued as a condition of his employment - affected his shooting for years, but of course he blamed the Glock.

I retired my 645 in 1995 when I was issued a Glock 22. As an instructor, you have an obligation to instill confidence in the issue weapon, and carry what the troops do. The two weapons were so dissimilar, that I was also doing myself a disservice trying to maintain top proficiency with both, since at that time I was still working drugs full-time and didn't have the time to be an expert with both. I actually liked the Glock, and went on to win many matches and championships - local, regional and international - with a Glock 35, box stock except for sights.

Still have my 645. Nope, not for sale. :-)
 
The 10mm was NOT developed specifically for the FBI. It was Norma's venture into creating a .40 pistol cartridge to be marketed generally. it shot flatter and carried more energy at longer range than the .45 and a tad more than the .38 WCF, which is what the .40 S&W almost matches. Sadly, since the '86 shoot FBI's firearms and cartridge choices are driven more by bureaucrats and some techs at the FTU ballistics test shop than by actual shooters or hunters. My agency fell in on the FBI's contract for the G19M and G2 147 gr load. Having shot animate objects with both our "old" 124 Hydra Shok and the Speer G2 the Federal bullet proved more destructive in my experience. The race to the 9mm was partially driven by some definite improvements in projectile construction but largely by agencies more interested in "diversifying" their organizations than training men and women to survive a fight. All the hooplah about this recoil thing in pistol cartridges has been used as an excuse to permit the hiring of people who are not suited by either character or temperament to do the job. Remember that all agencies have qualification scores that are set as a benchmark for job performance but "qualified" is in no way related in reality to "proficient". The modern FBI sadly has become a notorious box checking organization for too many things, from certifying agents regarding the Attorney General's investigative guidelines to marksmanship and gun handling. The 10mm as originally fielded by Norma and launched in the Bren Ten and Colt Delta Elite was a terrific cartridge that the FBI caused the neutering of and the invention of the .40 S&W or "attenuated 10" as the good Colonel called it. But all praise to Paul Liebenberg for designing the first .40 S&W for Smith, a task many said could not be done efficiently.
 
10mm advent/ sunset ?

No badge-owner here to attest to the inner sanctum workings of the 10 but I read with great interest the article about the FTU and the reasons for picking the 10.
Note: did not recently read this...still have my copy with that article from back in the day and remember Mr. Hall and his partner saying something to the effect "make the first digit a 4" as far as caliber selection. It`s kind of been a guiding principle for me when selecting a handgun. I bought a 1006 in 93? upon hearing that it was no longer the chosen for the FBI and although I don`t shoot it that much any more it`s not for sale. I do follow the first digit advice to this day though when I`m out and about.
 
Sectional Density:
.452 230 grain: .161
.401 180 grain: .159

Velocity of the average .45/230 is 850 fps. The .40 S&W and 10mm Lite were 950 fps.

When using the original 10mm loadings that were in the 1200 fps area it made a BIG difference...once watered down it made none.
 
Sig,

And here I thought I was the one they threatened to take away AUO. They got me in 10/98 when I was dumb enough to qualify with it at an HQ shoot. DOH! And then they melted it down!

There's a good reason the Agents all had S&Ws. with a few exceptions that was all they were authorized to carry (you forgot the best one though, the Model 19 4"). In the mid-80s the Bureau called in ALL Bureau owned and issued Colts. And I mean ALL. I was issued a Det. Spec. as well as my Model 13 and off it went back to the Gun Vault along with every other Colt in the entire field. The reason? The Gun Vault convinced some executive that it was too costly to maintain a parts inventory for both firearms, i.e., Colts AND S&Ws, and it was too costly to maintain gunsmiths trained to repair both types of firearms. I'm not kidding one little bit. And to make matters worse, since the FBI couldn't find another law enforcement agency that wanted the Colts they were obliged to cut them up (this was before the smelter). There were literally 1000s of Colts that would be considered rare and collectible today and their remains were buried on Quantico's artillery range. At the same time all Colts were removed from the POW list. No parts, no gunsmiths, no Colts - no problem.

So, the reason you saw only S&Ws in 1991 was that other than a few Sigs for SWAT agents that is all we could carry. A similar tragedy happened when the FBI transitioned from the Model 13 to pistols. It had been approved at THE highest level for Agent to purchase their Model 13 should they chose to. Then the Gun Vault got involved and complained that it would be too much trouble and take too much of their time. Result: buy back program nixed. Tragedy: 10,000 Model 13s destroyed.

The crusty old guys you saw carrying the Colts - were just that - crusty old guys that probably didn't pay much attention to what any suit told them to do. They wanted to carry their POW Colt and they did. But they weren't Bureau Colts unless someone pulled a fast one. And we all know that never could happen. LOL

Regards,

D
Why not give all FBI personal the option of buying one of the colts ?
 
@ Model 15 forever .... Doesn't seem like shoulder rigs were an option for the agents. Any reason they wouldn't be.
 
My experience in these matters is that rather than anything in the field, these changes occur because the right person received a "facilitating payment" (never a bribe) from the vendor, the most recent problem used to justify the decision.
 
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