F.B.I. why .10mm. over .45ACP. ?

[Old Navy]

Originally posted by Hot Toddy:
Hey Folks!
Thanks for the comment Fastbolt. One of the many things about this forum I enjoy is being able to disagree and discuss a point like adults and learn in the process.

However I just have one question even though this is the S&W forum, What is this about a "New" Colt in 10mm? Pictures, specifics, etc would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks and God Bless...HT

Colt has brought back the Delta Elite 10mm 1911 in limited production run, just as S&W seems to have done with the model 610 10mm revolver. How long either company will produce these guns is unknown and will most likely depend on sales. I have done my part for S&W 10mm buying a 610-3 6.5 " revolver, some others here need to step up and do the same.

 

[Fastbolt]

KMA must be a wonderful feeling Fastbolt.

Heh ... it can be.

My wife keeps waiting for me to walk in one evening and tell her I won't be returning to work except to turn in my car.

Although there's still some things I'd like to see completed in my additional duties (some committee work, bringing at least a couple of instructors & armorers up to speed so they don't notice that I'm gone when I walk out the door), I could walk out of my regular job assignment tomorrow and not miss it by the evening when I sat down to enjoy a good cigar and an adult beverage.

De nada Hot Toddy. That's one of the pleasant things about this forum. Much more polite & cordial than some other forums. Nobody has to be strident and obnoxious about being heard, being "right" or being "super tactical" and an expert. Everybody ought to be able to sit back and enjoy some level of participation in the friendly discussion. I sure learn something new and interesting most times I log on ...

Old Navy , here's a link to another forum where some images were posted. I prefer to use the link so the person who took the time to post the images gets some recognition for his contribution (dunno the guy, myself, but it's the polite thing to do).
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=337937&highlight=colt+10mm

I was thinking back to my last Colt armorer class, and some discussion about the earlier Delta Elite. The reintroduction of an improved Delta has been somewhere back on one of the back burners, and the instructor said that the general feeling at Colt was that they would probably be willing to make at least a limited run of guns if they thought they would get orders for them. The instructor said that a minimum number of about 300 had been floated about back then, and that the model might be brought back. Looks like it has, at least for a bit. Considering some of the other trivia kicked around, I'm a little curious if there's been a change in the strength of the recoil spring in this newest model.

 

[Old Navy]

Thanks for the link, but as they say... Been there, done that. I have seen the ShotShow pictures of the new Elite. May get one, but just never really liked the feel of 1911 as well as CZ & S&W 3rd gen guns for feel of grip.

Hey just noticed that you are Sig tec, is it true that Sig says do not dry fire their guns? I was told that by a Sig rep and wondered if he was FOS or not.

 

[WR Moore]

We issued the 1006, starting in about 1991/92 and kept it till 2006. I'm not gonna hash over some of the things said here, but the reason the 10mm got picked #1 was politics. There's secondary consideration that it's a hell of a subgun round, but that blows the 1 type of ammo argument right out of the water if you have 10mm for the subgun and 10 lite for the handgun.

We used a custom load: 180 @ 1200 +/- 50 fps for years. Our officerettes had no problem with the load, but the N frame length of reach to the DA trigger was an issue for many.

 

[Old Navy]

The main reason I see of PD's going to polly guns is weight and ease of carrying all day by the officers, large or small, and the fact that that differential alllowed for carrying more gear such as taser or extra ammo w/o straining the officer so much.

The gun manufactures really like the polly guns because of ability to make them cheaper and still charge about the same price, thus have a greater proffit margin. The long term unit cost of a M&P over a 3rd gen S&W is most likely about 1/10th the cost and that is some big proffit bucks over a 5 or 10 year period.

It always comes down to money & politics and the public always gets the short end of the stick.

 

[gunfan]

Originally posted by Old Navy:
The main reason I see of PD's going to polly guns is weight and ease of carrying all day by the officers, large or small, and the fact that that differential alllowed for carrying more gear such as taser or extra ammo w/o straining the officer so much.

The gun manufactures really like the polly guns because of ability to make them cheaper and still charge about the same price, thus have a greater proffit margin. The long term unit cost of a M&P over a 3rd gen S&W is most likely about 1/10th the cost and that is some big proffit bucks over a 5 or 10 year period.

It always comes down to money & politics and the public always gets the short end of the stick.

Did you ever doubt it? The 10mm is a great round, due to its "flexibility" (read: versatility.) The Military and rural Police departements benefit most from the round. The civilian sector gathers the gleaned benefits from both! The 10mm is much maligned and misunderstood piece of ordnance. The reasons for it's resurgence are many; its detractors remain flummoxed. Long live the 10mm!

Scott

 

[Old Navy]

Originally posted by gunfan:
Did you ever doubt it? The 10mm is a great round, due to its "flexibility" (read: versatility.) The Military and rural Police departements benefit most from the round. The civilian sector gathers the gleaned benefits from both! The 10mm is much maligned and misunderstood piece of ordnance. The reasons for it's resurgence are many; its detractors remain flummoxed. Long live the 10mm!

Scott

"flummoxed", and you just had to make an old fart do a Google didn't you.

I have a friend who has always smirked at my 10mm's, but he is a 40/45 man. The only 45 he owns is one I traded to him, but I finally got through to him recently by saying think 40 magnum automatic. Now he is talking about getting a G20 (10mm), just could not get him to look at a 610 4" at all. I guess he believes in volume not accuracy.

 

[Fastbolt]

Old Navy,

Nothing in the armorer's manual I could find about dry-fire being prohibited in Sig center-fire pistols, and I don't remember anything said about not doing it in the class. We sure did enough of it during the 2-day class. If you call Sig I'm fairly certain they'll tell you it's okay to dry-fire the center-fire pistols ... just not the .22 Mosquito. Phone: (603) 772-2302 (press #3 for Customer Service and follow the menu tree).

 

[Old Navy]

I don't own any Sig's (center fire models) anymore, but had just heard that (after selling my P220) they were not to be dry fired. All 22 rimfire should not be dry fired, do to firing pin striking edge of the chamber and breaking or at least being damaged or damaging breach, or both. S&W revolvers can be dry fired as can most rim fire revolvers.

 

[dmc8163]

WR Moore,

Your Dept carried 1006s until 2006! Fantastic! Based on my research the Nuclear Regulatory Commission maintained 1006s as their issue weapon longer than any other agency. Can you advise which Dept and whether they were traded in on new handguns?

 

[M29-3]

Originally posted by Landric:
IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure....

"imHo", and at risk of generating a firestorm, it seemed to me at the time the problem was with training and supervision. "Tactics", yes, but that is a result of training and supervision. The two good agents who perished in that firesack should not have died in such a manner. One of the perps (as I recall) had multiple wounds and like the trained fighter he had obviously been, kept on fighting to the death. At the time I suspected they were high on drugs of some kind, having dealt with pcp perps before, but later tests reported there were no drugs detected in the perps. So only prior training and adrenalin could account for the one guys ability to keep on fighting with serious wounds.
(edit, after reading: In the rush I neglected to mention the Agent who also perservered through serious injuries and finally put an end to both perps as they were, as I recall, about to exit the scene.)
Same problems, imho, with the Newhall incident years earlier.
"Tactics", yes. But tactics are a result of training and supervision. At least, "imHo". And, with apologies to anyone with contrasting view developed from a closer relationship with the actual event and people involved.

 

[glypnir]

Some of my opinions, for what they're worth - not much.

1. As an engineer - an old engineer - I've consistently observed that for any engineering project the politics are always 10 times more complex than the technics.

2. I've only fired one 10 mm, and that is the Glock. It did take me significantly longer to get back on target than it does with a 9 mm, for example.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the 1076 was much quicker back on target - it's much heavier.

3. Much of the current consumer gun market seems to be driven by CCW. At the gun stores I frequent, it seems to be mouse guns galore. Lots of 380s. The 10 mm doesn't really go with that trend.

Someone made a good point IMHO, about people practicing with 38 special and then thinking they can shoot with .357 mag. I'm working on getting grips for my 640-3 so that I can shoot even short barrel .357 mag rounds without too much pain. It's hard. I can't imagine shooting an airweight. Or I can, and I don't want to try it. I have fired .38 +p in a 442. 5 rounds was enough.

I think that a small concealable 10 mm would have the same problems.

In a big metal pistol, I think it would do just fine, but that is more of a hunting and LEO proposition than a CCW. The Glock didn't cause any pain, just a bit slower recovery time.

In our Registered Magnum, with the Pachmeyer presentations, the .357 Magnums don't cause any pain, just a bit slower recovery.

 

[Old Navy]

The DAO 1086 is amazingly lighter then the 1006.

The 1006 has less recoil then then my 642-2 does with +P ammo The 1086 one the other hand has considerable more recoil then the 642-2 does and would take some working with to shoot effectively.

 

[Mortech]

Very informative thread , you gotta excuse Gunfan (hope to see ya next month in Gig Harbor) he's the king 10MM pimpdaddy of the Puget Sound . He and a coworker even got me hooked on 10MMs . Now to find a 1076 ........

 

[Outrider]

Originally posted by Old Navy:
The DAO 1086 is amazingly lighter then the 1006.


The 1006 has less recoil then then my 642-2 does with +P ammo The 1086 one the other hand has considerable more recoil then the 642-2 does and would take some working with to shoot effectively.

Old Navy,

I have to politely disagree with your premise.

I've shot both 1086s and 1006s extensively side by side -- as well as a 640 with .38s (admittedly not a 642, but not that different in weight).

The difference in recoil on the 10s is negligible -- with the 640 (granted, again, not a 642) with .38s is more "pronounced".

All Smith 10s I've ever fired merely "bounce" with even the hottest loads. All revolvers tend to "buck and torque"...

It's inconceivable to me that you could say the 642 recoils less than the 1086 -- unless you had a slip of the fingers...

(I went back and reread that the 1086 has more recoil than a 642...I find that just..."unaccountable".)

I also don't believe there's that much difference in the weight on the 1006 and 1086. And as I said, I've shot and carried them side by side -- quite a bit. The 1086 is only 3/4s of an inch shorter. I'll check the original specs -- but I think the 1006 is 38 ounces -- unloaded -- about the same as an old Colt 1911.)

Something's off somewhere in perception -- somewhere....

 

[Outrider]

Maybe there's a difference in the recoil spring in the 10s...

 

[Outrider]

The 642 is 15 ounces -- versus 23 oz. for the 640 -- a mere 8 oz. differnece.

 

[WR Moore]

Originally posted by dmc8163:
WR Moore,

Your Dept carried 1006s until 2006! Fantastic! Based on my research the Nuclear Regulatory Commission maintained 1006s as their issue weapon longer than any other agency. Can you advise which Dept and whether they were traded in on new handguns?

If the NRC has/had armed staff I'm unaware of it-and I've operated under their oversight for over 20 years.

We traded our 1006s in on M&P40s. We were able to buy M&Ps for the whole department for less than replacing the 1006's with 4006s for the half that had them. We'd have preferred the M&P9, but we couldn't get a firm delivery date and were running out of 10mm ammo.

 

[CTPete]

Great thread. Just great!

 

[Outrider]

Your department was running out of 10mm ammo?

As for me, I'd have let others get what they wanted -- and just bought myself some more ammo for my 1006...

I've never felt under-gunned in its company...ever...

 

[WR Moore]

Originally posted by Outrider:
Your department was running out of 10mm ammo?

As for me, I'd have let others get what they wanted -- and just bought myself some more ammo for my 1006...

And you're going to buy this ammo where-in lots of 100,000 rounds or better? At a price that fits within the budget? If no one wants to supply ammo in the quantities necessary for training and practice at a price you can afford, the round is useless. We were able to keep it in service as long as we did by long term contracts orignially piggy-backed on federal contracts for millions of rounds. When they ceased, so did the manufacturers interest.

Bluntly, we originally adopted the 10mm for exactly the same reasons as the FBI/Virginia State Police: politics. Also the my gun/ammo is bigger than yours feeling that the guys making the decision got.

Whatever advantage you may feel the 10mm might have is negated when you can't train sufficiently to properly utilize the weapons system. Much better to have a caliber/weapons system that the troops can extensively train with.

 

[Outrider]

W.R.,

I was just messing with you and being needlessly facetious...

I understand all your points -- fully -- although I would prefer to carry the 1006 myself over just about anything else -- as a private citizen.

I do realize, however, I might feel differently if I had to supply all my practice and duty ammo.

 

[WJFranklin's Son]

Did any of you former FBI Agents know a former agent W. James Franklin?

 

[Outrider]

Would the "Miami Shootout" would have been a mere dusty footnote if the FBI agents at least had Mini-14s and properly plated vests -- along with decent tactics -- to match the bad guys?

The answer wasn't a switch to 10mm -- although I strongly favor the round.

It was being smart -- and doing things right. The agents should have had ARs -- and recognized that they were dealing with skilled gunmen who evidently planned to go out in a blaze of infamy.

By the way, about that same time, the .45 was considered a "man-killer" by many prosecutors -- and carried a stigma as such. (Not my words, but a prevailing delusion at the time.)

The round was also being abandoned by the U.S. military about that same time.

The whole affair was a shameful, nasty mess -- where good people died or were maimed needlessly.

(If you'll recall the details, at least one agent lost his pistol after a collision. Any way you dissect it, for the FBI, it was Murphy's Law -- cubed...)

 

[DC3-CVN-72]

I would like to take the time to thank everyone who contributed to my thread. I realy learned alot.

 

[sniper47]

Awesome thread. I love reading from the guys and gals who served in the FBI and learning all of the back room politics and deals that have been made regarding agency issued handguns. Thanks.

 

[azasadny]

Excellent info in this thread, it should be a "sticky"!

 

[firearmsunlimited]

Here is a link to an excellent article concerning the weapon & ammo specifications, testing and selection of the .45s currently issued the the FBI SWAT & CRG groups.
Most Wanted | American Handgunner | Find Articles at BNET

 

[Outrider]

This sounds ODDLY familiar...

Here's an outtake from the above article. Such copyrighted material is permited to be reproduced in small outtakes as direct, attributed quotes...

But it pretty well sums up what everybody thought.

**********************************************************************************

Here goes:

...We contacted several agents familiar with the pistol selection and, after promising them anonymity, they agreed to comment:

"'When John Hall was in charge of the 10mm program, he told me, 'I love the .45, I carry a .45, but I couldn't go before Congress and ask for $3.5 million for a .45 when the army had just spent millions to replace the .45.' So we came up with a cartridge that ballistically was identical to it -- the downloaded 10mm," an FBI source said.

"The FBI has been conducting an ongoing study on ballistics since Miami [the 1986 massacre in which two agents died in a bloody gunfight with bank robbers]. They found the .45 is a pretty good round. In a tradeoff between controllability and knockdown power, the .45 is it. Confidence level is also a part of it [the decision to adopt the caliber]," said another informed source.

There! The words no one wants to admit officially: "knockdown power." You know that was the reason for the .45 specification; I know that; and surely the FBI knows that. But they aren't about to admit it. The assorted liberals in the alphabet soup-- HCI, ACLU, NAACP -- would have a field day with such an admission. You can just imagine the headlines: "FBI Shoots To Kill," "FBI Picks Deadliest Weapon."

**********************************************************************************

Apparently, some in a liberal Congress at the time wanted the 9mm because it was a "less-lethal" round....

Gee, nobody's ever put that sharp a point on it before. But it's clear some want the 9mm PRECISELY because the 9mm IS less deadly...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

And don't forget that Ronald Reagan had been shot just a mere 7 weeks after taking office just a few years earlier.

Also, recall that Reagan's support for gun rights got a LOT spongier after that incident...

As much as I hate to say it, the shooting of U.S. Rep. Gabby Giffords also might have had a far, far, far worse outcome if she'd been hit on the same bullet path with a .45, a .357, a 10mm or a .40 -- as opposed to a 9mm.

 

[Outrider]

Plus, one of the reasons the FBI liked the 10mm is the ability to load it up or load it down.

Moreover, it had the potential to penetrate deeper -- while expanding to a desirable mushroom -- than a .45 or a 9mm. (Of course, that depends on the loading. One problem with full metal jacketed 9mms is their tendency to whizz straight through targets...So penetration isn't the only factor.)

Even the attentuated 10mm round the FBI "labs" were testing would have reached the heart of one suspect in the "Miami Massacre".

Still, what the FBI needed in that -- and any similar situation -- was the right rifle with the right load -- with a good 10mm as a BACKUP -- not a PRIMARY -- weapon.

Pistols are great -- but, people, there's a REASON THEY'RE CALLED "SIDEARMS"....

Pistols are BACKUP WEAPONRY....