Factory 38 Spl 158 gr RNL vs SWC

[38SPL HV]

Cannot understand why the 38 Spl 158 gr RNL is always maligned as a viable defense round when it has similar statistical “stopping power” as 38 Spl 158 gr SWC.

I also understand that the 158 gr RNL has desirable features as a defense round since it easily tumbles in the target when shot out of shorter snub nose revolvers.

I recognize that it was undesirable for police work when the 38 Spl was the most popular police sidearm mainly due to its poor performance through harder obstacles.

How many would feel safe having their home defense snub noses loaded with 38 Spl 158 gr RNL?

I prefer the idea of heavy bullet for caliber and the std velocity 38 Spl 158 gr RNL (or the old 200 gr) seems to be a good compromise and effective.

Appreciate any inputs

 

[Sistema1927]

When LEO's were carrying .38 revolvers, the 158 LRN was known as the "Widow Maker".

Not because it worked, but rather because it didn't.

 

[federali]

Go with the semi-wadcutter.

Both NYPD and the FBI went to the semi-wadcutter when they were still using revolvers. The round tended to stay in the target, delivering more energy. If I carried a revolver for self defense, I'd carry the semi-wadcutter but not in the speed loader. They tend to hang up on the chamber mouths. I would use a jacketed hollow point for my reload, regardless of how I reload.

Yes, the round nose .38 SPL has kept coroners very busy over the years but almost all police departments phased them out prior to the wholesale transition to autoloaders. There were two many cases of these bullets failing to incapacitate quickly enough.

 

[Texas Star]

The RNL would be absolute last choice if not for the weak US M-41 130 grain jacketed round.

 

[transit]

Never.

The cop who broke me in had been in a shoot out, with I want to say it was the BLA, in '74-'75, something like that. -At the time for me it was like, "A long time ago, in a galaxy far away..."

He had his RNL rounds skid off of auto glass. He was not a happy customer. I forget what ammo he switched to immediately thereafter.

Until the day he died he loved the .38 Special. By then he loaded it with LSWCHP.

 

[StrawHat]

The RN bullet tends to push it’s way through a target medium much like an arrow, leaving a smallish wound in it’s track. SWCs leave a larger wound track. The largest track is left by the full WC pushed to equal the velocity of the 158s.

That was what I carried when I had to carry a 38 Special.

As for SWC hanging up on reloading? Chamfer the chambers and practice.

Kevin

 

[ContinentalOp]

Not really a fan of either for self defense, but if I had to choose I'd go with the SWC for the reasons already stated.

However, if I had to go with a solid bullet and had a choice, I'd go with the 148gr WC. Higher likelihood of cutting a full-caliber wound channel (especially with hardcast lead) and penetrating deeply enough while minimizing the risk for overpenetration. The potential downsides would be difficulty with reloading and keyholing when fired from short barrels (my 642 keyholes with the one brand I've tried so far).

With that said, I just don't see a valid reason for choosing a 158gr LRN or SWC over a good HP, whether it's the Short-Barrel Gold Dot or the FBI load, unless you're somewhere that prohibits HP ammo.

Just my opinion.

 

[Univibe]

The RN bullet tends to push it’s way through a target medium much like an arrow, leaving a smallish wound in it’s track. SWCs leave a larger wound track. The largest track is left by the full WC pushed to equal the velocity of the 158s.

That was what I carried when I had to carry a 38 Special.

As for SWC hanging up on reloading? Chamfer the chambers and practice.

Kevin

No. The medical examiner can tell nothing from the wound track, except that the victim has been shot. Not the caliber, not the design, not the shape.

 

[transit]

Sometimes they do speculate though...

I'm thinking of the Wesley Cook case.

 

[alwslate]

For home defense with a J frame snub nose the 158 gr RN will probably
work as well as any other load with good shot placement. None of the
.38 spl HPs are likely to expand out of the 1 7/8" J frame, even at the
very short range of home defense shootings. As said above a hole is a
hole and a medical examiner could not tell what made the hole without
seeing the bullet. And RN bullets do tend to tumble in soft tissue.

 

[stansdds]

In my opinion, the only advantage a round nosed bullet has in a revolver is the ease at which they can be quickly loaded into the chambers. No sharp edges to hang on the cylinder, but that is the only advantage.

The semi-wadcutter is a better design for defense, but it is still historically a poor performer, maybe a tiny bit better than round nose, but not something I would want to stake my life upon.

The wadcutter may be slightly better, but the best wadcutter loads were the hollow base wadcutters that were seated backwards. These loads worked reasonably well as the hollow base expanded a little as it encountered tissue. Federal recently reintroduced this type of load with their 38 Special +P 130 grain HST Micro load.

Personally, for 38 Special I use the Speer 38 Special +P Short Barrel 135 grain JHP load. This has a proven record with the NYPD.

 

[ContinentalOp]

No. The medical examiner can tell nothing from the wound track, except that the victim has been shot. Not the caliber, not the design, not the shape.

They also can't tell how quickly they were incapacitated. There've been a number of instances when the forensic pathologist said the shots should've been instantly lethal, but weren't. That's why I don't rely on autopsy results when choosing defensive ammo.

 

[gwpercle]

I grew up reading Elmer Keith and Skeeter Skelton .
Since they had much more experience than I did and preferred the SWC over the RN I saw no reason to doubt them .
I own over 30 bullet moulds ... not one is a RN , all seem to be WC , SWC and TC (truncated cone) .
I did own 1 RN mould , 228 gr. 45 acp but after poor performance in my 1911 I sold it for $5.00 at a yard sale and felt sorry for the guy who bought it...I warned him !
After a good 50 years of shooting I can find no instance , target or game hunting , where the RN excels a WC or SWC in revolvers or TC in semi-auto handguns.
Gary

 

[Hapworth]

No. The medical examiner can tell nothing from the wound track, except that the victim has been shot. Not the caliber, not the design, not the shape.

Where did StrawHat reference a medical examiner's assessment? He said that different bullet shapes and sizes make different types of wound channels -- to build on his point, some more conducive to damage and some less, which is a fact irrespective of whether or not the human eye can account for it.

Differences in wound track size in the service calibers is generally moot; differences in tissue damage from different bullet types can be significant.

 

[Rule3]

Once again I will post the link to this video. For SD at close range with a handgun, It really is not gonna matter what bullet you use. The debate will go on and on till the cows come home.
If you do not hit a vital organ or blood vessel, the profile of the bullet nor the "wound tract" is gonna make a difference despite what the internet forum experts claim.

Much ballistic gel , and wet newspaper has been wasted over the years.

Believe what you want.
One of the best videos on bullet testing

 

[lrrifleman]

@OP:

First, "stopping power" is a mathematical concept (mass s velocity= energy) for the most part. Some could absorb multiple rounds without moving a bit.

This is where you can benefit by looking at other disciplines, beyond just self-defense articles. For example, look at handgun hunting, where the goal is to inflict the largest possible permanent wound channel as possible so that the game can bleed out. In addition to the wound channel, handgun hunters look to induce as much shock to the game's system in order to bring about near immediate incapacitation. This is achieved by using the largest possible metcalf (flat part of the bullet nose) as possible. Hence, the benefit of the SWC.

Round nose bullets tend to push flesh aside, while SWC bullets tend to punch a hole and induce incapacitating shock.

 

[Nevada Ed]

the 158 LRN is a great target load in my J frame snub nose and the
158 Swc is very accurate in my 6" barrel, over the LRN design.
Would I use them for SD................... NO.
Only the lead "FBI" if it was the only ammo I had left !!

In my test the 135 Gold Dot or the 130 HST bullets are the best SD loads for my 2" revolvers, for year around carry.

However, if the 158 gr lead bullet works best in your weapons........
go for it.

POA and placement are KING.

 

[Babysitr]

I reload .38, have several, carry one when needed..I use Hornady 110 gr..self defense....hope I never have to find out how they work!!

 

[Groo01]

Groo here
The round nose is accurate but It will bounce more that a flater nose round
At one time all [almost] handgun and most rifle bullets were round nose.
If you want a bullet [38] to yaw [tumble] use a 195 to 205 gr round nose
and shoot it SLOW [like 600fps].
The thing is , they will not go through car glass or metal well.
The 158 is a "little" better.
Just remember JHP [aka Supervel] were designed to not shoot through and hit someone else, or skip off hard things like roads and buildings.
The damage increase they made was just a Plus.
This was 'back in the day'...

 

[transit]

Once again I will post the link to this video. For SD at close range with a handgun, It really is not gonna matter what bullet you use. The debate will go on and on till the cows come home.
If you do not hit a vital organ or blood vessel, the profile of the bullet nor the "wound tract" is gonna make a difference despite what the internet forum experts claim.

Much ballistic gel , and wet newspaper has been wasted over the years.

Believe what you want.
One of the best videos on bullet testing

That is a good video. And at around 11:41 he says that using the right type of bullet is far more important than what caliber it is.

Which is what this thread is all about.

I don't think anyone even bothers to test .38 Spl. RNL in gel. It's a lousy fighting round.