From what I understand the Miami shootout led to the current FBI Protocol in which 12 inches of penetration is the minimum accepted. The bad guy failed to drop because a bullet failed to penetrate enough to reach his heart. I mention this because so many J Frame lovers on this forum shoot 38 spcl or 38 spcl +P. I have data from Speer that states their 38 spcl +P 135 grainer short barrel load only penetrates 11 inches through heavy clothing and bare gelatin. Why would this be good enough for your J Frames when it wasn't good enough for the Miami shootout or the resulting FBI Protocol? I carry a 357 J Frame loaded with Speer Golddot Shortbarrel 135 grain 357's for this reason. With this load I meet the 12 inch minimum penetration.
FBI Ballistics Protocol
- Thread starter Robert B
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From what I understand the Miami shootout led to the current FBI Protocol in which 12 inches of penetration is the minimum accepted. The bad guy failed to drop because a bullet failed to penetrate enough to reach his heart. I mention this because so many J Frame lovers on this forum shoot 38 spcl or 38 spcl +P. I have data from Speer that states their 38 spcl +P 135 grainer short barrel load only penetrates 11 inches through heavy clothing and bare gelatin. Why would this be good enough for your J Frames when it wasn't good enough for the Miami shootout or the resulting FBI Protocol? I carry a 357 J Frame loaded with Speer Golddot Shortbarrel 135 grain 357's for this reason. With this load I meet the 12 inch minimum penetration.
JFrameElliot
Member
I can shoot my model 36 very accuarately and consistantly. I fell very comfortable with it. However, I don't expect it to be a manstopper. Especially against determined bank robbers/murderers like they had in Miami.
In Miami, there was a lot more to that story than just the particular round that they used. The tactics that were used and the weapons that were used are also an issue. Plus, the robbers/murderers were very determined not to be taken into custody.
I do not like shooting .357's out of a J frame. That is just me. Heck, I don't like shooting .357's out of my Model 66
However, my current EDC is a Glock 23. It is what I am issued and it conceals almost as well as my J Frame when I carry them on my belt.
JohnK
US Veteran
I believe the protocols were a way for blaming the fiasco on something other than bringing handguns to a rifle fight.
I'm not likely to have to shoot through windshields, and 11" of penetration is fine with me.
I'm not likely to have to shoot through windshields, and 11" of penetration is fine with me.
I suspect that most of us, that are not LEOs, that carry concealed purely for personal protection up close, chose our handguns for a variety of reasons that would not suffice for LEOs expecting to go up against well armed, determined criminals.
Niklas
Niklas
As a result of that tragic event the FBI did solicit, test, and evaluate various handguns and cartridges eventually selecting the S&W 10MM cartridge and the Model 1076. A derivative of which soon developed that would allow a similar cartridge that could be loaded and fired from a 9mm size frame, the 4006 in TDA and the 4046 in DAO.
Pictured below is a "Sample" 4046 sent to the Tulsa Police for evaluation.
Pictured below is a "Sample" 4046 sent to the Tulsa Police for evaluation.
G
Guest
Why not if that is where the BG is? My point is you don't know what you are likely to face during the next confrontation or the one after that. I don't consider a .38 Special to be enough but a .50BMG is a bit too heavy to carry all the time. I carry a pair of Glock 27s because I can draw a second gun much faster than I can reload the first one. The .40 S&W may not be the best but it is much better than any .38 Special especially from a 2 inch barrel with only 5 shots.
marvin knox
Member
Everything concerned with concealed carry is a trade off or sorts. We measure our ability to accurately handle a certain ammo against it's ability to perform up to an adequate standard.
If we have some ability to spare - we up the performance part of the equation a little. A really good quality +p .38spl. is all many people can do well with for follow up shot. Such folks, it may be said, trade off the ability to shoot bad guys through windows with the ability to hit bad guys where it counts multiple times in 99% of civilian self denfense situations.
It seems a good trade off to them and to me. How about you?
Not to be agrgumentative (I carry low to medium recoiling .357's myself for a little extra performance)- but you say in your original post.
"I carry a 357 J Frame loaded with Speer Golddot Shortbarrel 135 grain 357's for this reason. With this load I meet the 12 inch minimum penetration."
Could you provide a link to tests that indicate that round's ability to reach that performance level consistently?
If we have some ability to spare - we up the performance part of the equation a little. A really good quality +p .38spl. is all many people can do well with for follow up shot. Such folks, it may be said, trade off the ability to shoot bad guys through windows with the ability to hit bad guys where it counts multiple times in 99% of civilian self denfense situations.
It seems a good trade off to them and to me. How about you?
Not to be agrgumentative (I carry low to medium recoiling .357's myself for a little extra performance)- but you say in your original post.
"I carry a 357 J Frame loaded with Speer Golddot Shortbarrel 135 grain 357's for this reason. With this load I meet the 12 inch minimum penetration."
Could you provide a link to tests that indicate that round's ability to reach that performance level consistently?
I'm hearing a lot of you guys saying you don't expect to encounter anyone with the same will to live as the Miami shootout criminals. How do you know that? To anwer the question of how I came up with the fact that the Speer SB 135 grain 357 meets the twelve inch penetration criteria: Speer didn't test it specifically. One of their technical reps e-mailed me and said that the 357 SB round would penetrate more and expand less than their 38 +P SB round. So I had data from Speer that stated that the 38 +P round ran at 860 fps from a S&W 640 and penetrated 11.00 inches in bare gelatin and heavy clothing. I also had data from Speer stating that the 357 mag 125 grain GDHP fired from a S&W 65 ran at 1189 fps and penetrated 16 inches in bare gelatin and 23 inches in heavy clothing. Knowing that my 357GDHPSB round travels at 990 fps I averaged it in performance between the other two rounds. That's the best I can do because Speer doesn't have specific data for me. As an example, I think in heavy clothing that I'll get another inch of penetration averaged between the 11.00 and 23.00 inch marks for the 38+P and the 357 125 grainer. That's the best I can do because I don't test this stuff in gelatin myself.
G
Guest
Robert B;
I think your conclusions are most likely acceptable but the One and ONLY hard and fast Rule about bullet performance is that NO two bullets will perform exactly the same way when they are used on the Human Animal. That is that!
I think your conclusions are most likely acceptable but the One and ONLY hard and fast Rule about bullet performance is that NO two bullets will perform exactly the same way when they are used on the Human Animal. That is that!
Revolver King
Member
There are a lot of criminals in the graveyard that were shot with a 38 specials. Its all about shot placement.
pinkymingeo
Member
Unless memory fails me, the Miami shootout was ended by an agent with his J-frame BUG. I pocket carry a 340PD with 357's loaded to 38+P 930fps with a Speer 125gr jacketed flat point, non-expanding bullet with a wide meplat. I have no doubt that it'll create two holes when fired at most angles. I have absolutely no faith in expanding handgun bullets, for PD or hunting, and prefer to rely on bullet placement.
marvin knox
Member
Various bullets are created for a certain velocity bracket and may behave differently out side of that bracket. We can't depend of simply interpolating data from the results of one test or another into data for another round and another speed altogether.
The deep and wide hollow point 135 gr. bullet was developed especitally for the speeds encountered by those carrying .38 snubbies. They perform well in that bracket - adequate if not spectacularly.
There have been numerous reports of the speeds generated with .357 ammo having adverse effects on that particular bullet. Although it seems to penetrate at least as good as the .38 rendition, some fragmentation and over mushrooming has been observed in private testing.
I used to carry the round myself. I contacted Speer and asked them about the reports. If you'll allow me a rough but accurate PARAPHRASE I'll tell you their response directly to me.
"The 135 gr. bullet used in the .357 ammo was developed for the .38 spl. short barrels. When fired as .357 ammo it is indeed being 'overdriven' and may loose it's tip. However, being a bonded bullet, it should hold together and continue to penetrate. The .357 135gr. for short barrel ammo should be a good ammo for you to carry in your snub barreled gun."
"Over driven"? "Lose it's tip"? "Should hold together and continue to penetrate"?
I was not reassured. I have switched to the DPX round for similar recoil and more dependable performance in a .357 round.
I suppose the .357 Speer is just fine for carry in a snub. I just trust a bullet that was created for the velocity threshold that is being generated in my particular gun more than one that has some question marks concerning it.
Not to tell you that you are not packing OK ammo. Just pointing out that we cannot just boost velocity and expect that only good things will follow from it.
I like to see actual tests for ammo I carry. I have seen it for the .38 spl. Speer short barrel stuff. It performs fairly close to FBI standards and just fine for civilian carry IMO. I have seen tests for the DPX round that I carry in my own gun. I have not seen tests for the .357 Speer short barrel stuff.
Just pointing out that there may be a number of reasons why a person would choose the .38 spl. rendition over the .357 stuff - recoil generation being a legitimate reason among several other reasons. Also there are a number of reasons for choosing other brands of .357 rounds over it as well IMO.
To each his own, I suppose. But you can't win when saying that people who choose the .38 spl. round have used faulty reasoning. They may well be reasoning just fine.
The deep and wide hollow point 135 gr. bullet was developed especitally for the speeds encountered by those carrying .38 snubbies. They perform well in that bracket - adequate if not spectacularly.
There have been numerous reports of the speeds generated with .357 ammo having adverse effects on that particular bullet. Although it seems to penetrate at least as good as the .38 rendition, some fragmentation and over mushrooming has been observed in private testing.
I used to carry the round myself. I contacted Speer and asked them about the reports. If you'll allow me a rough but accurate PARAPHRASE I'll tell you their response directly to me.
"The 135 gr. bullet used in the .357 ammo was developed for the .38 spl. short barrels. When fired as .357 ammo it is indeed being 'overdriven' and may loose it's tip. However, being a bonded bullet, it should hold together and continue to penetrate. The .357 135gr. for short barrel ammo should be a good ammo for you to carry in your snub barreled gun."
"Over driven"? "Lose it's tip"? "Should hold together and continue to penetrate"?
I was not reassured. I have switched to the DPX round for similar recoil and more dependable performance in a .357 round.
I suppose the .357 Speer is just fine for carry in a snub. I just trust a bullet that was created for the velocity threshold that is being generated in my particular gun more than one that has some question marks concerning it.
Not to tell you that you are not packing OK ammo. Just pointing out that we cannot just boost velocity and expect that only good things will follow from it.
I like to see actual tests for ammo I carry. I have seen it for the .38 spl. Speer short barrel stuff. It performs fairly close to FBI standards and just fine for civilian carry IMO. I have seen tests for the DPX round that I carry in my own gun. I have not seen tests for the .357 Speer short barrel stuff.
Just pointing out that there may be a number of reasons why a person would choose the .38 spl. rendition over the .357 stuff - recoil generation being a legitimate reason among several other reasons. Also there are a number of reasons for choosing other brands of .357 rounds over it as well IMO.
To each his own, I suppose. But you can't win when saying that people who choose the .38 spl. round have used faulty reasoning. They may well be reasoning just fine.
Doug M.
Member
*
I'm pretty sure S/A Morales was using an "L" frame as his side arm, but he also used a 12 gauge shotgun (1 handed due to injuries). He's got some serious big brass ones.
As for the 11" penetration vs. the FBI's preference for 12 or more: On a frontal shot, 11" will do amply unless you are shooting into a huge food blister (we had a guy take 4 230 grain 45ACP gold dots - good solid hits - a while back, and he was so fat that had he wanted to fight as much as it seemed, I think a head shot would have been needed). Remember that for an LE BUG, or the overwhelming majority of predictable civilian shoots, (mostly) frontal is what you are likely to have. The FBI wanted adequate performance on SIDE shots after going through intervening materials, including an arm as was the case in Miami.
Even on a seriously obese male, since the bottom of the target area is a horizontal line through the nipples, the needed penetration is going to be under a foot almost all the time. As for that specific load, it is has performed well in testing, although I am not sure about actual "human" subjects. A good performer, and for me the default, is a good quality wadcutter. Square, cuts good holes, has adequate penetration, easy to shoot even in a snubby.
Remember folks: these are SHTF moments. That's why one carries a pistol. If you have reason to expect a fight and can't be somewhere else (cops, for example, don't get to avoid fights), take a long gun. Even those may not do the job, but they are a much better choice.
pinkymingeo
Member
Oops. Agent Hanlon was carrying the J-frame. It had been a while since I read about the shooting.
walkin' trails
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As I recall, one agent arrived at the gunfight with a J-frame because his primary handgun, which he had positioned in the car seat beside him, went flying out of the car when he rounded a corner, slid, hit a curb, and the passenger door popped open.
The main Winchester Silvertip in question, did penetrate into one of the crook's pump organ, but the crook was not predisposed to die immediately. Many departments continued to use the 9 mm Silvertip long after the Miami shootout with good results. I know of one rural department that had problems with Silvertip penetration on roadkill, but that was likely a case of ammo with quality control problems...and it was old stuff. They've since upgraded to 40.
Nevertheless, starting an uproar about the performance of the 9 mm took the focus off of poor tactics...
Someone who got the privilage of listening to a talk by SA Morales said that he carried nothing smaller than a 45 after that episode. It was my understanding that he used a six shot Smith to dump three rounds into each of the crooks' heads...that done after he had been wounded. Not knowing what the FBI carried or authorized at the time, I assumed it was from a three-inch 13 or 65. Yeah, he done good.
When it comes to stopping a threat, shot placement remains the key to success.
The main Winchester Silvertip in question, did penetrate into one of the crook's pump organ, but the crook was not predisposed to die immediately. Many departments continued to use the 9 mm Silvertip long after the Miami shootout with good results. I know of one rural department that had problems with Silvertip penetration on roadkill, but that was likely a case of ammo with quality control problems...and it was old stuff. They've since upgraded to 40.
Nevertheless, starting an uproar about the performance of the 9 mm took the focus off of poor tactics...
Someone who got the privilage of listening to a talk by SA Morales said that he carried nothing smaller than a 45 after that episode. It was my understanding that he used a six shot Smith to dump three rounds into each of the crooks' heads...that done after he had been wounded. Not knowing what the FBI carried or authorized at the time, I assumed it was from a three-inch 13 or 65. Yeah, he done good.
When it comes to stopping a threat, shot placement remains the key to success.
Old Navy
Member
I carry a Kel-Tec PT-9 as a pocket gun, mainly because of price, and then found it to be as accurate as my 642, but with the punch closer to a 357 and it has a 7 round magazine. That said I'm no LEO, just retired USN and HS teacher. I am not about to shoot someone 25 yards from me in SD, it will be some guy that walks up to me looking wrong and wanting to rob me and/or injury me. The PF-9 is for the SOB that wants to try that, if I was a local uniformed LEO I would be carrying either Glock in 10mm or 357 Sig and would not mess with a 10mm short (AKA 40 S&W) because it is not that potent of round IMHO.
As far as my top 3 rounds go for on the street duty, 10 mm, 357 Sig, 45ACP then down to 40 S&W, and 9 mm in that order.
For pocket carry however that's a whole different ball game, because CCW requires first a weapon that conceals and easy to use. Then if you are a LEO detective you are not so concerned about bulge and can carry some of the larger guns like a G29 10mm, but if you are like me a mid 60's guy that the closest you get to a bad area is Wal-Mart or local used car dealer then a 642 comes to the head of the list or one of the other model small revolvers. One reason is no small auto will ride in the pocket like a revolver will, but if using a IWB carry then you can jump up to something better like my PF-9, a 3" 1911, or a G29 in 10 mm for that matter. You have to remember that no one gun or caliber is perfect for every carry or situtaion and most of us will have to make due with one for all needs that fits or budget. For me the PT-9 came to the front and if I had the extra $$$ I would have a 642 also available.
As far as my top 3 rounds go for on the street duty, 10 mm, 357 Sig, 45ACP then down to 40 S&W, and 9 mm in that order.
For pocket carry however that's a whole different ball game, because CCW requires first a weapon that conceals and easy to use. Then if you are a LEO detective you are not so concerned about bulge and can carry some of the larger guns like a G29 10mm, but if you are like me a mid 60's guy that the closest you get to a bad area is Wal-Mart or local used car dealer then a 642 comes to the head of the list or one of the other model small revolvers. One reason is no small auto will ride in the pocket like a revolver will, but if using a IWB carry then you can jump up to something better like my PF-9, a 3" 1911, or a G29 in 10 mm for that matter. You have to remember that no one gun or caliber is perfect for every carry or situtaion and most of us will have to make due with one for all needs that fits or budget. For me the PT-9 came to the front and if I had the extra $$$ I would have a 642 also available.
Revolver King
Member
To me the best carry gun is the one you will always carry. For me it is a Kel-tec PF9. Because it just fits well in my pocket and I will always carry it with me. I own glocks and XDs and many revolvers. But the kel-tec works for me.
photoman
Member
Why? Because humans are not made out of jello and the Speer 135 load has worked very well for the NYPD in acutal shootings.
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Actually, the final shots were fired with the S&W 586 carried by Special Agent Edmundo Mireles, loaded with the "FBI Load," the 158 +P grain lead hollow point, which was Bureau issue at the time. I am not sure of the brand of the ammo, but Winchester originated it, and both Remington and Federal also make the load.
