FBI Ballistics Protocol

[SWAT Lt.]

In the testing I've seen the 38 Special 135 GD should make the 12 inch mark. It's what I presently carry when I carry a snub. Another good snubby round is the CorBon DPX which I will likely switch over to when I change out my carry ammo. It has good performance and less felt recoil in my 342. I recently bought some Winchester PDX1, 130gr bonded JHP, that I hope will also work well but won't know for sure until they are tested.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and has their own preferences. Looking at it objectively based on OISs, in proper loadings the 40 S&W is without a doubt an effective round. Nothing is 100% but I feel quite comfortable carrying it as a duty/off duty round.

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Originally posted by JohnK:
I believe the protocols were a way for blaming the fiasco on something other than bringing handguns to a rifle fight.
...

That pretty well sums it up.
As for penetration; a given load will penetrate less if it expands more, and vice versa.
Bullets that penetrate less than 12" have been putting bad guys in the ground for decades. In a few cases, like Miami, more penetration might help. But in many other cases, more penetration can result in the bullet wasting some of it's energy on the other side of the BG.
Each person and each agency needs to carefully examine their probable scenarios and pick ammunition accordingly.
BTW, handgun bullets fired into people tend to expand less than in testing, rather than expanding more.

 

[SWAT Lt.]

Regarding the 12 inch penetration, I agree but the .25 ACP has put a lot of folks in the ground also but I wouldn't choose to carry one. I also agree many bullets expand less, if at all, in BGs than in gelatin (especially the bare gelatin protocol). I have seen some LE projectiles from OISs that look quite similar to testing and not real easy to tell which came from which. I have spoken with other LE agencies that use different brand/caliber rounds that have similar observations. A lot of it depends on type of ammo, any intermediate barriers, and what in the body is hit.

The tragic results of the Miami incident, coupled with the exhaustive efforts and extensive testing protocol developed by the FBI (and IWBA) are the reasons we have such top notch ammo today. Ammo performance has come a long, long, way in the past 23 years.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Originally posted by Robert B:
Why would this be good enough for your J Frames when it wasn't good enough for the Miami shootout or the resulting FBI Protocol?

There were so many things wrong at Miami that day that ammo and ammo issues were more of a scapegoat for questionable tactics, to say the least.

I would offer the following:

If you are chasing known killer bank robbers, (1) your long gun is up front with you - AR, MP5, 870, whatever, (2) you wear an athletic type strap on your glasses to keep them on during strenuous activity, (3)your handgun is in your holster where it belongs until needed, not under your leg on the seat so it gets thrown out of reach when you ram the bad guy's car, (4) do not ram the bad guy's car to stop it - see (3) above, (5) you use the long guns mentioned in (1) above in the fight in the first instance, etc., etc.

I say again, ammo was pretty low on the list of failures that day, if you can call ammo performance a failure at all.

I do not know anyone who feels better after getting one up the snout with the Gold Dot 38 short barrel load. Finally, it was the old FBI load in 38 +P (158 grain lead hollow point) that finally ended the shootout.

 

[Eirerogue]

Funny how time seems to temper the reactions of the Miami shootout and protocol changes.

You got to remember that we went through many changes in ammunition during the 70's-80's and there were real questions about what was working and what wasn't.

Combine this with the impossibly strict USG contracting provisions for firearms and ammunition, it's a wonder that anything ever changed.

I still remember the 110gr. Super Vel round being issued for our old Model 10 snubbies. We had MANY failure to penetrate LEATHER belts with that round. I was present for several and agents weren't happy.

Enter the ballistics tests and 10mm changes after the Miami shootout. FBI tried to bring about needed changes to the field rapidly and some great folks at Quantico were almost indicted for trying to speed-up the USG acquisition process. Just a mess and the 10mm choice suffered the bureaucrats wrath.

 

[photoman]

Originally posted by Eirerogue:

I still remember the 110gr. Super Vel round being issued for our old Model 10 snubbies. We had MANY failure to penetrate LEATHER belts with that round. I was present for several and agents weren't happy.

Not happy? I can imagine! That load runs around 1000-1200 fps out of a 2" barrel (the CorBon 110 JHP+P is a good copy but with a better bullet). It's amazing to think it would not go through a leather belt.

 

[H.P. Kid]

As I recall the fight ended when Agent Mirales shot the remaining suspect in the head with his Issued 3" model 13 using 158 gr lead HP 38 spl +p. Shot placement is everything.