FBI Firearms History....Some Of It Lost?

[lw]

We all know that history is endlessly lost at times and some recently discovered documents reveal the FBI's firearms training relations with the U. S. Military is no exception.

I'd venture a guess that most here have read about the history of the "marriage" between the Bureau and the U. S. Marine Corps. Especially when it comes to firearms training, the FBI Academy at Quantico, and more. Dating back to the 1930s, the relationship has been forever as solid as a rock!

In essence, that's the story we've been told anyhow. And although all of it is true, some of the actual beginnings of FBI firearms training with the military during that same period has virtually been lost over time.

Fact is, something happened way before the Bureau's marriage to the Marine Corps. And it deserves a rightful place in our history giving all of us a more complete story of what really happened...

You can find the details at our website at:
1933-'34 - FBI Relations With Army/Marine Corps

More detail about the Bureau's firearms training is found at similar links at the same website.

Enjoy the ride...
Larry Wack, FBI (Ret. '68-'03)

 

[Texas Star]

Larry-


I always enjoy your posts about the Bureau and its guns. You're probably the primary chronicler of that today.


Not to leave out the USAF, we were shown an FBI film on using revolvers back in the 1960's. Someone even posted that video here not too long ago. This may have been limited to Air Police units.


Most here probably identify with Jelly Bryce and a few other hard handgunners as establishing FBI firearms training. At that time, Col. Chas. Askins, the National Pistol Champion, was dispensing his wisdom to USBP agents.


And by 1942, Col. Rex Applegate was training OSS agents. He used some FBI techniques, but also studied under Fairbairn & Sykes and read Wild Biil Hickok's advice. He turned out some deadly gunfighters.


I believe that Col. Walter Walsh had both USMC and FBI associations?

 

[Muley Gil]

In the 1930s, Lewis B (Chesty) Puller USMC attended the US Army's War College. He complained that the Army was more concerned about volume of fire as opposed to accuracy.

Since law enforcement officers are responsible for where their bullets wind up, the FBI was probably more comfortable with the Marine Corps approach to accurate, aimed gunfire.

 

[codenamedave]

Interesting read, I only knew of the inverse situation, Marines taking training from the FBI. Col. Cooper mentioned taking a class once, where it was taught that the proper way to reload the 1911 was to take the empty magazine and reload it with loose rounds from your pocket. It did not strike him as advanced thinking, and was likely the old guard deliberately handicapping auto shooters in order to favor their beloved revolvers.

I used to work with a Marine who retired around '95, IIRC. One of the places he was assigned was some type of MP outfit in DC. At various times he did executive protection, was on the crew that came running when somebody pushed the red button under the desk in the Pentagon, and did regular pick-up-drunk-servicemen type stuff.

He said there was some kind of an open agreement with the FBI (National?) Academy, so that whenever they had an open spot in one of their classes, they'd offer it to the Marines. He went to every class he could get.

 

[lw]

Yes, you're right. Walsh spent WWII in the U. S. Marine Corps. and was involved in the landing and battle at Okinawa.

 

[JayCeeNC]

Larry, it could be a simple matter of logistics.
Quantico was located close to DC and the Bureau could use it as a consolidated central training location allowing the Bosses at Headquarters to keep a close eye on the agents.
Personal relationships with Marine officers may have figured into the issue as well.

 

[Texas Star]

I'm not sure where/if he fits in here, but I've several times mentioned a man named Harry Archer who wrote a few articles for, Gunfacts, a magazine that Ken Warner published about 1969-maybe 1973. This was before he became editor of, Gun Digest.


I read that Archer was a USAID agent. Today,I found his obituary Online, and the Washington Post described him as a CIA operative. He was apparently an equipment specialist, choosing weapons and other gear and training agents in survival techniques.


Archer designed the Loveless Chute Knife and had other custom cutlery.


I don't know whether he interacted with the FBI academy.


He told me in a letter that he really favored the Colt .45 auto over S&W revolvers, but liked them, too and had friends at the S&W factory who got him hard to obtain models.

 

[kwill1911]

TS - link to Archer's obit?

 

[lw]

Some Follow Up...

Good morning gents, thank you for your kind words and for your input on the subject matter.

If you return to the original article at our website, in the lower left portion you'll notice some changes I made and a couple of extra documents that might explain the transition from the Army to the Marine Corps. These changes made center around the period of late September, 1934.

After reviewing the article again, and reading some of the input from you, I realized these documents were needed as part of the explanation. I think both Baughman and Keith, the two frontrunners in the Bureau's firearms training program, made an interesting observation each in these 2 documents. The words "proficiency" and superior ranges.

One thing is certain with regard to the progress of Bureau firearms training as one reviews the thousands of old documents. There's a continuous "theme" if you will of simply making every attempt to "do things better." And all of it was with Director Hoover's backing. Better firearms, better ranges, better ammo, more realistic target shooting, on and on. The way it should have been. The way it should be for the military and all police departments too. If it meant changing locations, then so be it; if it meant cosolidating, so be it.

Director Hoover, and the country, was outraged over the June, 1933 ambush at the Kansas City Massacre costing an agent's life and locals too. Hoover had already buried several agents. No one knew it, but as the transition was occuring into October, 1934, in another month the Director would be burying two more agents, Sam Cowley and Herman Hollis, killed by "Baby Face" Nelson and John Paul Chase. There would be more by close of the decade.

In summary, I don't think there's any doubt from documents and Bureau history avail that within two weeks after Kansas City, the marching orders were very clear. Get this training formalized; get the cooperation of whomever you can find in the military, get the best equipment money can buy, and get these men trained quickly with apology to no one.

It truly was a period of "balls to the wall" administration as far as Director Hoover was concerned...

thanks again, and check out the changes/additions made to the site page if interest.

larry wack
FBI, Ret

 

[okiegtrider]

Fascinating article and website. Glad you shared them here.

 

[Texas Star]

TS - link to Archer's obit?

I'm not sure how the Rules here may see that. Copyrighted material... His was one of many on the same page in the Washington Post . If you Search the name Harry Archer, I found just two suitable entries, both obviously about the right man. One was in the Post, about halfway down the obits.


The other was to some survivalist (?) publication where C.E. Harris had written about weapons and techniques taught to and by CIA operatives. Read the whole story to see several mentions of Archer, whom Harris knew. You have probably seen Harris's bylne in the American Rifleman, etc. I think that publication date was within the last week or so. Should be the only thing like it.


Good luck. If you can't find it, we can probably find some other way to get the link to you. But even I found it quickly,and I am not a Search champion.

 

[S&W ucla]

As always, interesting and informative. Thanks for the hard work y'all do in keeping up the site and digging for more history.